Crossfire: The Plot That Killed Kennedy.

[kenmurray]

John Zeroski wrote:Crossfire is probably the second or third book I would read if I had to start from scratch.I would probably read Galanor's Cover-Up and maybe the last Kurtz book dealing with the "debate" regarding the assassination.In Crossfire Jim Marrs distills a quarter of a century of thinking about the assassination. He rounds up the obvious, usual suspects, and comes up with the usual scenario, which is probably close to how the research group is going to conclude, in some variation, that here lies the meaning of the assassination.However, unlike most of the research community, he did not stop thinking about what happened to America in the aftermath of this event, and in his book Rule by Secrecy he rounds up another group of suspects in his sub-chapter titled Kennedy opposed the globalists. Here it is that he suggests that if Kennedy were some kind of threat to these "globalists", they might retaliate with his death. Since this book is his low-keyed introduction to, and view of the New World Order material, Marrs seems to me to be suggesting that Kennedy was assassinated because he was slowing down the timeline of the NWO development. He has relied on the thinking of Professor Donald Gibson to be found in Gibson's Battling Wall Street and The Kennedy Assassination Coverup.Jim Marrs may have backed down from this position in a later book, but to his everlasting credit he has expressed a view that needed to be expressed, even though it appears that it won't be taken up by any current intrepid researches.John, if you haven't read "JFK and the Unspeakable", I highly recommend you do. One of the best books on JFK in years.

[John Zeroski]

I've read JFK and the Unspeakable, and there is some fresh information there I haven't read before, some of it not seeming to be credible.I don't believe JFK had actually turned toward peace during his administration, as I don't believe he was actually a true Cold Warrior. I believe the Missile Crisis finally got him moving toward taking some action in dealing with the crazies among his "advisers".This book is valuable, though, in supplying some information about Prouty as a "focal point officer".According to what Douglass writes, pages 196-7, Prouty was much more than the benign person he was portrayed as in The Men Who Killed Kennedy. In fact, he had to have been a CIA asset to undertake the duties ascribed to by Dulles in the book.And yet, we are expected to believe from his Secret Team that he didn't sign any Official Secrets Act, or whatever it's called, and so he was able to write the book. This strikes me as pure BS.Actually, there are other anomalies in the book in this book that would appear odd to anyone who has read some American History.But this is really the subject of another thread.Since people like to throw out reading suggestions, my current choice of books is Patrick J Buchanan's Churchill, Hitler, and the Unnecessary War, an American's view of the Second World War.I believe the same forces that contributed to this event were the same forces that ordered the death of Kennedy. So did Jim Marrs in his Rule by Secrecy.

[SeamusCoogan]

Yes this is a debate best served on another thread.Patrick J Buchanan your not talking about the Pat Buchanan are you? Oh you are.Ah Im supposed to be respectful of others views but firstly, I am very cynical of anyone who would promote Pat Buchanan over Jim Douglas. In particularly because of Buchanans. Sheeeeeesh.This book is valuable, though, in supplying some information about Prouty as a "focal point officer". According to what Douglass writes, pages 196-7, Prouty was much more than the benign person he was portrayed as in The Men Who Killed Kennedy. In fact, he had to have been a CIA asset to undertake the duties ascribed to by Dulles in the book. And yet, we are expected to believe from his Secret Team that he didn't sign any Official Secrets Act, or whatever it's called, and so he was able to write the book. This strikes me as pure BS.Prouty's book got pulled off of bookshelf in America. Furthermore, I was in contact with Jim Marrs and he said to me you could and I quote you "Go to the Bank on Prouty." Ill tell you what is bullshit the crap thats been said about Prouty and the Chch Star that he had no control over and what he was badly mistaken.Were you implying Prouty is a plant of some kind? Did you know that all and I mean 'all' copies of his book the secret team got taken off of the shelves. As for Marrs, Marrs stuff on Kennedy is good. Thats all Im going to say. Marrs by the way told me via email some 7 years ago that you could go to the bank on Prouty as far was he was concernedDouglas and prouty are not perfect. I have Douglas sitting around about 93% out of 100, and I have Prouty sitting at a highly respectable 77-85% which is about as much as I give Marrs on Jfk out of 100 respectively. Baring in mind in my ratings system someones gotta have a pass mark of at least 65 or over to pass. Jim Di and Lisa lol well you all know where I put em. Buchanan sheeeeesh man Negative 50, a few places below Dave Lifton lol.

[Bob]

SeamusCoogan wrote:Yes this is a debate best served on another thread.Patrick J Buchanan your not talking about the Pat Buchanan are you? Oh you are.Ah Im supposed to be respectful of others views but firstly, I am very cynical of anyone who would promote Pat Buchanan over Jim Douglas. In particularly because of Buchanans. Sheeeeeesh.This book is valuable, though, in supplying some information about Prouty as a "focal point officer". According to what Douglass writes, pages 196-7, Prouty was much more than the benign person he was portrayed as in The Men Who Killed Kennedy. In fact, he had to have been a CIA asset to undertake the duties ascribed to by Dulles in the book. And yet, we are expected to believe from his Secret Team that he didn't sign any Official Secrets Act, or whatever it's called, and so he was able to write the book. This strikes me as pure BS.Prouty's book got pulled off of bookshelf in America. Furthermore, I was in contact with Jim Marrs and he said to me you could and I quote you "Go to the Bank on Prouty." Ill tell you what is bullshit the crap thats been said about Prouty and the Chch Star that he had no control over and what he was badly mistaken.Were you implying Prouty is a plant of some kind? Did you know that all and I mean 'all' copies of his book the secret team got taken off of the shelves. As for Marrs, Marrs stuff on Kennedy is good. Thats all Im going to say. Marrs by the way told me via email some 7 years ago that you could go to the bank on Prouty as far was he was concernedDouglas and prouty are not perfect. I have Douglas sitting around about 93% out of 100, and I have Prouty sitting at a highly respectable 77-85% which is about as much as I give Marrs on Jfk out of 100 respectively. Baring in mind in my ratings system someones gotta have a pass mark of at least 65 or over to pass. Jim Di and Lisa lol well you all know where I put em. Buchanan sheeeeesh man Negative 50, a few places below Dave Lifton lol.Seamus, while I certainly agree with you about Pat Buchanon, I think you are a bit harsh with David Lifton. Maybe he's not well liked in some circles, but I think he brought a very interesting perspective to the table with his book...Best Evidence. Did he make errors? Hell...it goes with the territory. But his theory was spot on. JFK's wounds were INDEED altered. I also think Jim Marrs is great (as is Robert Groden), and James Douglass wrote a fantastic book this year (JFK and the Unspeakable)...the best JFK assassination book in years. I also really liked Russ Baker's book Family of Secrets. Jim DiEugenio is probably the best overall researcher in the business right now. MarK Lane is a legend and he still can bring it. It was Lane and Jim Garrison that made me become a interested observer and a so called "researcher" when I was in college. Speaking of legends...Fletcher Prouty is the man! There are many other great researchers like Jack White, Lisa Pease, Mary Ferrell, Tom Rossley and so many others. We don't agree on everything, but our basis for a conspiracy is solid, well researched and validated. I also applaud all the work Wim has done, not only with his book Files on JFK and his vids, but also with all the great information on this site and putting together this forum.

[Phil Dragoo]

Craig Roberts in Kill Zone: A Sniper Looks at Dealey Plaza presents two pages of diagrams showing the floor hatch and exterior hatch to the aft cargo compartment, the means by which the body was removed for alteration.Lifton's jousting with Liebeler led me to mention it to our friend from Army intelligence, later a New York lawyer, who informed me he and his wife had had dinner with Liebeler and his wife and Liebeler was "very nice". Kennedy was "very dangerous".Prouty had very interesting things to say about helicopters. A friend of ours in a Boston financial house at the time reports a visit by Eliot Janeway in the summer of 1963 to warn of what a dangerous man Kennedy was. Janeway was Johnson's economic advisor.Marrs as essential background, adding Summers' Conspiracy for the stereopticon view. Livingston and Groden, especially Groden's picture book for the three dimensional view. The film by Stone gives the fourth dimension.Assassination Science for the JAMA jousting, and the radiometric densitometer--that science stuff has impressed my radiologist and surgeon who "don't care about that political stuff".Armstrong's Harvey and Lee where he impresses upon us that Oswald was a creation of the CIA, not Hoover, not Johnson, not Cubans, not Oilmen.The Assassinations ed. by Jim DiEugenio and Lisa Pease for the high-definition presentation of that which is too often an ink-spot news wirefoto.

[ThomZajac]

glitch.. pay this no mind.

[ThomZajac]

Phil,When you have a few minutes I'd greatly appreciate it if you could share what you know about the timing and other particulars of the body alteration.It seems to me- that with all the alterations that were made- that the plotters would have wanted as much time with the body as possible and so an early snatching would have been preferable, but it's still all an open book to me.Thanks-ThomPS. "The Kennedy is a (very) dangerous man" mantra by the plotters rings very true to me. On the inside they had to say that the planned killing of JFK was a matter of NATIONAL SECURITY- that his behavior was so reckless/dangerous that removing him from office by other (slower) means) would have put the country at incredible risk. JFK's sleeping with many unvetted women, combined with his taking of many pain-killing drugs (and LSD) might have been used as part of the justification. A Peter Jennings documentary puts forth this idea in not-to-subtle a manner, and my guess is that most who are now privy to the 'inside job' nature of the assassination will say he had to be killed because of the dangers he posed to national security. How else do so many go along with the plot?

[Phil Dragoo]

ThomDavid S. Lifton's Best Evidence (1980-2) posited alteration between Parkland and Bethesda. He suggested the body was removed from Air Force One, altered at Walter Reed, and delivered to Bethesda in a shell game of two caskets and two vehicles.He cites the occipital wound witnessed by many at Parkland, yet not noted by Humes, Boswell, Finck; not seen in any extant photo or x-ray.He was particularly moved by the two agents noting "surgery to the head"; also the absence of brain noted by naval personnel with whom he spoke despite the autopsy figure of 1500gm.He relates the description of the 4mm smooth hole neatly cut to one and one half inch for the trach, yet presenting to the Bethesda autopsists as a ragged gash three inches in length.I was struck by Liebeler's toying with and obstruction of Lifton, and by my Army intelligence veteran friend's remarks concerning Liebeler as a fine fellow and Kennedy as a dangerous scoundrel.I have subsequently examined the drawings of the aircraft type of tail number 26000 presented by Craig Roberts showing the relevant hatches. Roberts notes there was an idling helicopter on the right side of the aircraft offloading the body while RFK et al escorted the ornate coffin down the scissors-lift truck on the left.It has been suggested that the skull was worked over with a hammer, opening the wound from the occipital to the massive thirteen-centimeter two-handed cavity on Humes' drawing.

[SeamusCoogan]

Lol no to many top knotch researchers have in my opinion discredited Lifton and its a long list.I urge all Liftonites to read this utter bollocks about Jim G and Kerry Thornley. http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/thornley.htmHe also takes on Lisa Pease about this and you can see what a nasty little fellow he is.http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/garrisn2.Now you had better bring your game if you wanna tangle with Probe and Jim Di's sometime Editor. Even if you bring your game itll only save you from looking stupid rather than utterly ludicrous. Now, Lifton doesnt just make one or two mistakes he was also good mates with Patricia Lambert. The mysterious biographer of Garrison whose visage is impossible to locate on the internet. And who also spread despicable lies. Just because Garrison rejected his pet theory.http://www.ctka.net/pr599-lambert.html I looked into Lifton, looked into him years back, and none of it stacked up for me then chief and it doesnt now. The list I have compiled below is a rough sampling of how I rate certain individuals. Gotta think how amazing Meagher and Weisberg were considering when and for how long they wrote.Di EugenioPeaseDouglasKelinFonziNewman.WeisbergMelansonMcKnightMeagher (Amazing considering when she wrote. Same as Weisbrg)TalbotThese 3 guys were the best of the Commission and HSCA eras and still write and publish after the ARRB. They have not explored 9/11 nor aliens. They have kept pretty darn straight on JFK.Lane Groden GibsonWechtWarren Commission and HSCA era researchers were limited to a lot more speculation than those post Jfk thanks to the ARRB. But deserve a big up for the efforts at least.Sklar/StoneJack WhiteGarrison.MarrsSummersProutySimkinAguilarFerrellThe list just keeps a growing. Lifton couldnt light a candle anywhere near them Bob. Ive always thought Lifton was something of a straw candidate someone promoted so he could get shot down.He did unearth Dale Myers as one of Bugiosi's ghost writers however. So hes not entirely evil. lol

[Phil Dragoo]

SeamusI am currently reading Lisa Pease's fabulous tale of all things Angleton. In the valuable volume containing Jim DiEugenio's saga of betrayal of Jim Garrison's investigation by the highest levels of the CIA and FBI.I will be looking into identifying Patricia Lambert-Billings, and comparing the body Thornley to the Backyard Marxist Newsreader.My Lifton 80-2 came from a round of purchases including Lane, Meagher, Groden, Livingston, et al.Groden had a matte on Kennedy's head; Lifton had a hammer.If he's giving McAdams foot massages, he may be beyond professional help.Douglass is next. And what do you make of Tom Wilson's work recently out.And what does Lambert make of Helms' remark at the contemporaneous morning Langley briefings, "How about our people in New Orleans?"Right, right, with her it's all, "La la la, I can't hear you with the shower running."