The three tramps

[ChristophMessner]

AnthonyAthletic wrote:Chris,After watching Spooks, Hoods...it was a point of interest where Holt says he met Harrelson & Rodgers back in the box car after basically 'not being with them for a spell'. Leads me also to think about the old man who saw one gunman toss a rifle to his associate (further down from Files location). I forget the old man's name, you know who I mean. And didn't Bowers see two men also, in a position further down from the Files location? Caifano is very possible.Its a huge can of worms when you watch the Files dvd's and listen to the person's named as present on that day. There's information from all aspects as the cream of hitmen; seemed to be on a Busman's Holiday on the 22/11/63.TonyHi Tony, the "old man" was deaf mute Ed Hoffman. Yes Bowers confirmed two men behind the fence, about 10-15 feet apart. I recommend to you to watch the video-collection of GJJdude on youtube. All about JFK-murder and aftermath. Authentic. Brilliant. Yes, there were many CIA- and Mafia-guys on the scene on Nov 22nd 1963, but they were not innumerable and Vincent Bugliosi for example is making conscious disinfo in his new book Reclaiming History by printing a list of "all who ever were mentioned to be the assassins", because many of his names are proved non-assassins meanwhile. So we never will know all participants in the plot, but when you study Wim's Website and especially Tosh Plumlee's + Holt's + Files' testimonies + Bob's background knowledge carefully you will find out, that's always the same names named and that the hard core shells off. We are not tapping in the dark anymore only. Chris

[ChristophMessner]

Some conclusions from the Chauncey Holt testimony: At the time of the shooting, the moment the shots were fired, we knew something went awry. ["We" means he was not alone at the parking lot behind the fence! And he and his accompaniment were probably be seen by Mr. Bowers. ] We didn't know why, but from the screaming and carrying on we knew that there had been one hell of a bad incident. [As if he would not have known that there will be going an assassination attempt to take place!] At the time, what went through our minds was, "Hey, we had gotten ourselves into something that is way over our heads." So I scooted under the train, [and the other?] went under to the other side, encountered Harrelson and Montoya, [So his previous accompaniment was not Harrelson or Montoya=Rogers!] we searched out the car [as if searching for something specific and prepared, somebody had told them before!], which was not too far from the engine, climbed in it, closed the door and sat there in silence, while I monitored the radio and listened to what was going on. [who brought the radio?]We were in the railroad car by 12:31-12:32, almost immediately... as soon as the shooting started, and there was pandemonium and people were running all over the place. When actually, we look back on it, we could of easily of lost ourselves in all of this stuff. We could have gotten right up to the grassy knoll and thrown ourselves on the ground, like everybody else was, and started screaming, and that would have been the end of it. [So somebody ordered him to move into the railroad car?]We were in the box car a long time. Actually we heard a lot of transmissions. I estimated that it was almost 2 o'clock, although my watch was still on Arizona time. I had a bad habit of not changing my watch. So I think we stayed in there till practically 2 o'clock. We were still in there during the time when we heard the transmissions involving Tippit and back and forth. We heard a lot of other communications. We heard the call than an officer had been dying. I am told and I believe it was somewhere around 1:15 when we heard about the incident at the Texas theater, although we didn't know what happened. [So they waited until the planned patsy assassin was caught and they expected that to happen earlier obviously!]So I thought it was possibly 2 o'clock before the train actually started to move. [Who was in control of the engine? He must have had corresponded with the real railroad workers before, mustn't he?] We started to move, backing down the tracks a little ways. We thought it was going to move, then we starts to backup. I thought they were going to switch us onto another track. [Hey, stealing oneself away by railway, when there were some 50 policemen in the parking lot wathcing it?]Then suddenly the thing stopped. [What big surpise!] They opened the door and there was a whole bunch of police officers with shotguns and everything else. We saw, the box car was not a fully loaded box car, but in this box car was ammunition, unusual ammunition. [Did they really find the C4 only with the help of the police and were they really surprised to see C4 ... ]Defcord?, crates that looked like they were possibly claymore mines, drums marked : MUD, which seemed like drilling mud, which was unusual to be with the rest of this material. Which I assumed to be C-4 or some plastic explosives. [So who brought these explosives into this boxcar and when and how could this person do this without being noticed by real railroad workers? And if they intended to blow the 3 tramps into the air, for which purpose? Framing what?] The officer took us out, we tried to identify ourselves. We said, "Hey, we're federal agents working on this thing," and they said, "Come with us." So we strolled along and actually we went back, we came out of the yard, we went by the Texas Depository building, across the street. I would say Harrelson and I were sort of dragging along, but Montoya [=Rogers}, he was really digging out. [So Montoya obviously know in advance that "they" might have blown the 3 tramps into the air, in contrary to Holt and Harrleson.] He was actually right up behind the lead officer. He turned us over to two officers, the officer in charge, we later learned was Harkness.In the photos, the individual in front is the individual I knew as Richard Montoya (Charles Rogers). The individual behind him I knew as Charles Harrelson. I had reason to believe that who he actually was, even though I didn't know him that well. I 'm confident that's who it was. And I'm the gentleman in the back, carrying the bag with the radio in it. [So the other had none? Obviously it was necessary to keep the radio ...]We were not placed under arrest. We were taken across, and someone interviewed us momentarily, and turned us over to someone else. A person I later learned was Captain Fritz, he said not two or three words to us. He said he was turning us over to the FBI. His name was Gordon Shanklin.He asked us who were were, what we were doing there. Just about this time, while were were doing this, there was a lot of confusion, a lot of pandemonium, and actually a lot of, I would term jubilation on the part of all of the police officers in there, especially Gordon Shanklin, which led us to believe that our release was because of something that happened. Although they had said it on a number of occasions, someone else was arrested. They had caught someone in the Dal Tex building. I heard someone say, "We got one of them." But then when the matter came in that they had indicated they had got the individual that had killed the cop in Oakcliff, all at once it seemed to me, even what I considered prematurely, they indicated they had the guy that shot the president too. And at that time the level of attention on us... they had some other people they had detained and looked like they were going to arrest, including Braden.Jim Braden was there. I didn't recognize him at first, because he had a hat on with some kind of Texas style hat band on it, and I didn't know him all that well, if you know what I mean. But I knew that I recognized him like I recognize you.But once we got in there, and these events come off because they happened almost at the time we arrived there. Then the attention shifted a lot at once, from us to Oswald, who turned out to be Oswald. I assumed that it was their normal enthusiasm about having captured a cop killer, is what I thought. Because they treat cop killers a hell of a lot different than they treat killers of anyone else. Not the president of course. But at that point, Gorden Shanklin... we hadn't been in there too long. We were there a little while. And all this time... then who we are came up, then they were very careless. We were strolling around, people were coming around. They didn't treat us like dangerous suspects. They didn't handcuff us. Plus they didn't search us, and we were heavily armed. [Which is not that visible on the tramp photos, isn't it?]We were taken to the Sheriff's Department, right there on Dealey Plaza. Didn't walk far. We didn't make a statement. Weren't fingerprinted. Weren't taken to the jail (where) I assume we would have been taken. Then Gordon Shanklin said, "You're free to go."

[MikeNarrett]

"A hat on with some kind of Texas style hat band on it" eh?http://www.jfkresearch.com/eaglesham/page3.jpg

[NickMarinich]

Here's a tribute video to Chauncey Holt made by his daughter:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98l-hlTrTCcAt the 3:21 mark, Holt's face is overlapped with that of the older tramp, and it matches up perfectly.

[ThomZajac]

Bob wrote:The three tramps is a good debate, but as Chris says, this has been debated before. Put me in the camp that believes the Holt, Harrelson and Rogers were the three tramps. First of all, Lois Gibson is an expert in the field of identifying people through photos and she says that the tramps were Holt, Harrelson and Rogers.http://www.jfkmurdersolved.com/lois1.htmI also believe Chauncey Holt...http://www.jfkmurdersolved.com/holt1.ht ... 9WJSszTAIn addition, Holt was a professional forger. I'm sure his expertise in that particular area helped the fake Secret Service men that were near the knoll area at the time of the assassination.Also, there are some that say that E.Howard Hunt and Frank Sturgis were two of the tramps. They were not. They were in the Dealey Plaza area, but were not two of the tramps. Jimmy Files said he saw Sturgis in fact. Also, I have posted the photo of Hunt walking towards the know a couple of times.I've been trying to figure out where E. Howard Hunt was when the shooting began, and I thought I MAY have seen him in a photo taken shortly after the assassination (I'll have to look for it again). And so I am very interested in the photo you posted. Trouble is, I really can't see a thing- do you have a link or something to a better image?

[Bob]

Here you go Thom...

[neab]

I remember watching a video/interview with this french guy reymond? and Jim Marrs. He claimed that the old guy was american (possibly Chauncy Holt imo), and the other 2 were frenchmen. I'm not really clued up as to who they are or as to their involvement. But he seemed pretty clear that the 2 french ones were hired assassins. Perhaps they were 2 men the bower saw?

[Bob]

neab wrote:I remember watching a video/interview with this french guy reymond? and Jim Marrs. He claimed that the old guy was american (possibly Chauncy Holt imo), and the other 2 were frenchmen. I'm not really clued up as to who they are or as to their involvement. But he seemed pretty clear that the 2 french ones were hired assassins. Perhaps they were 2 men the bower saw?I do believe Chauncey Holt was the older tramp. However, E. Howard Hunt was in Dealey Plaza, as was Frank Sturgis, who Jimmy Files saw that day, but they were not tramps. The other two tramps in my opinion were Charles Rogers aka Richard Montoya and aka Frenchy, who like Oswald and Ferrie came from the LCAP, and also Charles Harrelson, father of actor Woody Harrelson, who was convicted of killing a federal judge later on.http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JF ... relson.htm

[ThomZajac]

Bob wrote:Here you go Thom...Thanks again Bob. Certainly COULD be him, though I don't remember anyone saying they saw him at Dealey Plaza. I've blown it up-

[ThomZajac]

OOps.