Plausibility & Ramifications of a Throat Wound?

[steve manning]

Dealey Joe wrote:The reason for my thinking shrapnel is if it was actually a whole bullet I think there would be an exit wound and his neck would have been shattered? Just don't seem to show the kind of dammage a bullet would produce. It looked like it most likely one of the first shots.Again, I place more confidence in the Parkland Doctors observations; they dealt with many gunshot wounds in that hospital. I presume you're referring to shrapnel from inside, as discussed on this website by Wim? If so, that would not explain how his tie was nicked from the front and not underneath, next to the skin. Did you watch the videos by Gil Jesus? He did a great job with this. The links are posted in my opening post on this thread.Thanks Joe,Steve

[ThomZajac]

Good discussion, Steve, thanks.You wrote-"We might start another thread about Lifton, but suffice it to say, my confidence in his work has been shaken...especially the basis of his reasoning for claiming the casket was left unattended in Air Force One, which supposedly left enough time for the body to be removed from the casket. He never followed through with his fact checking and based the hypothesis on the uncorroberated statements of someone else. He was confronted about it and recanted the speculation offered in his book. He had 15 years to check that out and failed to do so."I am currently rereading Best Evidence (I'm shocked at how little I remember) and am just coming to the coffin business now. I seem to remember that LBJ insisted that everyone come to the front of Air Force One for the swearing in ceremony, and it is certainly clear that Jackie was there. Do you know who was with the coffin for those five or so minutes? Thom

[Dealey Joe]

I am going to Dealey as soon as I can and I will take some photos from the drain and the overpass.maybe I can post them on here?I just cannot think that as open as the overpass seems to be that there could have been any cover for a shooter there.I am also not sure about the drain theory. I stood there and looked up the street but can't recall my thoughts about it.I will try to go on the weekend. sometimes Groden is there and I can chat with him a bit.Amytime any of you guys want to go to Dealey I will be happy to pick you up at the airport for a tour.

[steve manning]

ThomZajac wrote:Good discussion, Steve, thanks.You wrote-"We might start another thread about Lifton, but suffice it to say, my confidence in his work has been shaken...especially the basis of his reasoning for claiming the casket was left unattended in Air Force One, which supposedly left enough time for the body to be removed from the casket. He never followed through with his fact checking and based the hypothesis on the uncorroberated statements of someone else. He was confronted about it and recanted the speculation offered in his book. He had 15 years to check that out and failed to do so."I am currently rereading Best Evidence (I'm shocked at how little I remember) and am just coming to the coffin business now. I seem to remember that LBJ insisted that everyone come to the front of Air Force One for the swearing in ceremony, and it is certainly clear that Jackie was there. Do you know who was with the coffin for those five or so minutes? ThomI was just reading it the other night, if you said it I would recognize it but in the meantime I will try to find it. Nevertheless, one of the guys who had supposedly left the casket, was the guy who found out what was wrote about him and he did an interview to straighten out the record. He stated unequivically the casket was never left unattended at any time. He said he was never asked personally and the person who told Lifton it was left unattended briefly was mistaken. Can't recall the details but Lifton was confronted about it and admitted his error.ThanksSteve

[Dealey Joe]

Steve After watching the gil Jesus video again I am almost positive that if the shot that went thru the windsheild and struck JFK in the throat would have to come from a low angle, the street there drops quite a bit as you travel west toward the overpass.the hole in the tie looks to me like a shrapnel wound and if the bullet went thru the windsheild it could hve slowed it some and also made it tumble or be eratic. but the hole in the neck looks like it would have caused some major damage.

[steve manning]

Dealey Joe wrote:Steve After watching the gil Jesus video again I am almost positive that if the shot that went thru the windsheild and struck JFK in the throat would have to come from a low angle, the street there drops quite a bit as you travel west toward the overpass.the hole in the tie looks to me like a shrapnel wound and if the bullet went thru the windsheild it could hve slowed it some and also made it tumble or be eratic. but the hole in the neck looks like it would have caused some major damage.Hi Joe,Good discussion, and I hate to sound like a broken record but again, the doctors at Parkland had above average expertise in gunshot wounds; and if memory serves, David Lifton is the guy who first pointed this out. Incidenatlly, you never did comment on where you think the shrapnel came from or what kind of metal it was? Was is it supposed to be the result of an exit of some kind (such as what Wim suggests) or from somewhere externally? Furthermore, be it an entrance or exit wound, a piece of shrapnel would tear the tissues more; this was a very round, clean, clear cut projectal wound of entrance. Again, the nick in the tie strongly indicates that whatever it was, it came from the front and had to be an entrance. An exit wound would have nicked the back of the tie.Thanks!Steve

[Dealey Joe]

Well i don't really know where it came from or if it did.The throat wound looks like a bullet hole for sure. it could have been bullet fragmentts, glass or a peice of the car.Gill has that bullet bouncing around quite a bit.you know strange things that are not readily explainable do happen.The tie hole looks like a tare and not what I would think as a bullet going thru it.we would need to have a little information on the caliber in order to figure ballistics.In my opinion Files' .222 with a 45 grain bullet at over 3,000 fps would explode on contact andI am not sure you could tell exactly where it came from.thanks for discusing it with me.

[steve manning]

ThomZajac wrote:Good discussion, Steve, thanks.You wrote-"We might start another thread about Lifton, but suffice it to say, my confidence in his work has been shaken...especially the basis of his reasoning for claiming the casket was left unattended in Air Force One, which supposedly left enough time for the body to be removed from the casket. He never followed through with his fact checking and based the hypothesis on the uncorroberated statements of someone else. He was confronted about it and recanted the speculation offered in his book. He had 15 years to check that out and failed to do so."I am currently rereading Best Evidence (I'm shocked at how little I remember) and am just coming to the coffin business now. I seem to remember that LBJ insisted that everyone come to the front of Air Force One for the swearing in ceremony, and it is certainly clear that Jackie was there. Do you know who was with the coffin for those five or so minutes? ThomI found the critique about Best Evidence I was talking about earlier and here is the link: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/wrone.htm[Lapses such as support of Zapruder film alteration theories] on Lifton’s part are far too frequent. Other examples can be found in Best Evidence, the most startling of which is Lifton’s claim that his unnamed conspirators actually stole JFK’s corpse, altered it to fit with evidence implicating Oswald, and then surreptitiously returned it. In this far-fetched and unsubstantiated scenario, the conspirators – while the presidential party in Air Force One prepared to return to Washington in those minutes just prior to and during LBJ’s swearing-in ceremony in the front cabin – took the body from the bronze casket at the plane’s rear and put it in a body bag they had hidden in an unidentified place on the plane. When the plane reached Washington, they furtively removed the body from an opening on the darkened far side of the plane, while the empty bronze casket was removed on the other side in view of the crowd and in the light of cameras, then placed in an ambulance for the official motorcade. The covert team then supposedly transported the body by helicopter to Walter Reed Army Hospital, where they manipulated it to suggest only shots from the rear (thus making Oswald the sole assassin). Then they rushed the body in a plain gray shipping coffin by a black hearse to Bethesda Naval Hospital, where the empty bronze casket had been taken and where the conspirators entered through a rear gate and then placed the body back in its original casket, without detection by the Secret Service, hospital officials, or the Kennedy family. Unfortunately for Lifton, the actual evidence contradicts his charges at every point.First, no opportunity to steal the body existed on the plane. Lifton omits from his account that the body was wet, dripping in blood and other fluids that, when lifted from the coffin, would have left telltale signs and alerted aides, crew, and guards. See a description in William Manchester, The Death of a President, November 20-November25, 1963 (New York: Harper and Row, 1967), as well as the Parkland nurses’ account before the Warren Commission: Nelson, previously cited; Margaret M. Henchliffe, 6H139-143; and Diana Bowron, 6H134-139.Close Parkland hospital nurse Doris Nelson testified that when placing the corpse in the casket “extensive bleeding from the head [occurred] and they had wrapped four sheets around it but it was still oozing through.” 6H146.Close The cloth beneath the president was soaked, and a plastic form was laid on it to prevent seepage through the casket. Further, when the pallbearers placed the coffin on board, steel wrapping cables were placed around it and its lid to prevent shifting during takeoff and landing and in case of air disturbances in flight, as must be done to cargo on airplanes for safety. Removing and replacing such cables would have required time and opportunity that were unavailable to any would-be conspirators.In addition, the casket was under ample armed guard at all times during the flight, a fact that Lifton neglects to mention." CE1024, 18H771, 779; Ruffis Youngblood, Twenty Years in the Secret Service: My Life with Five Presidents (New York: Simon and Schuster, 1973), 129.Close Secret Service agent Richard Johnsen discreetly stood a few feet away in the hallway entrance, CE1024, 779.Close while Brigadier General Godfrey McHugh, JFK's aide, stood at attention beside the casket throughout the trip and during the swearing-in ceremony. Ibid., 677.CloseLifton, however, states that soon after the casket was placed on board, McHugh left it to check on why the plane had not departed, allowing conspirators to steal the body. But immediately upon the publication of Best Evidence, McHugh wrote a letter to Time magazine in which he denied Lifton's claim that he had left the body unattended. Godfrey McHugh, “Letter to the Editor,” Time, February 17, 1981.CloseFinally, most of JFK's aides and clerical staff were in the rear of the plane, with key aides sitting close by the casket from the moment it was secured at the rear of the plane. Kenneth P. O’Donnell and David R. Powers, “Johnny We Hardly Knew Ye!”: Memories of John Fitzgerald Kennedy (Boston: Little, Brown, 1972); and Lawrence F. O’Brien, No Final Victory: A Life in Politics (Garden City, N.Y.: Doubleday, 1974), are memoirs of three aides.Close But Lifton does not mention this. Lifton, Best Evidence, 678, excludes the majority of Kennedy’s staff from his discussion.Close In fact, he asserts the Kennedy people all went forward to the swearing-in ceremony, thus leaving the casket without protection. That assertion, however, runs counter to evidence provided by LBJ’s secretary, Marie Fehner, Jake Jacobsen, “Analysis,” ms., Lyndon Johnson Library, unpaginated.Close and by the Secret Service, Agent Roy Kellerman Report to Chief Rowley, February 17, 1964, JFK Collection, National Archives.Close both of whom were ordered to record the names of all attendees at the swearing-in ceremony. Both lists show that the majority of JFK’s aides and staff were not present, a fact also confirmed by Cecil Stoughton, White House photographer, who snapped over a dozen photographs of the ceremony. Mentioned by Lifton, Best Evidence, 677-678.Close Especially given the tiny size of the forward cabin, how could it have been otherwise? Manchester, Death of a President, 321.CloseNo army helicopter at Andrews Air Force Base secretly ferried the corpse to Walter Reed Hospital. Lifton, Best Evidence, 681-683.Close Aside from the presidential helicopter, the only other one present brought in Lieutenant Sam Bird's casket team, Manchester, Death of a President, 383.Close something noted both in William Manchester’s Death of a President and in the Military District of Washington records for November 22, sources with which Lifton was quite familiar. Weisberg file of his Freedom of Information Act request for copies of Lifton’s FOIA requests for the Military District of Washington records, Weisberg archives; Lifton, Best Evidence, 393-394.Close Nor was the far side of the plane darkened to shield the furtive removal of JFK’s corpse. Instead, it was bathed in klieg lights, and thousands of persons watched along the fence that bent backward along that side, providing, in effect, a well-lit and very public stage for any would-be body snatchers.Nor did any vehicle, much less the alleged black hearse, pass through the back gate of Bethesda. As proof to the contrary, Lifton cites some navy men at Bethesda who said they saw an ambulance come up Fourteenth Street from Walter Reed Hospital. Lifton, Best Evidence, 579.Close But their testimony is somewhat suspect because there is no Fourteenth Street leading out from Reed; a section of that street was eliminated when the hospital was constructed.Also, Colonel Russell Madison was stationed at Bethesda and left each day through that gate as a shortcut home, except on the late afternoon of November 22, when he found the gates shut and padlocked with no guard posted who could be countermanded by officers to open it. Interview with Colonel Russell Madison, Frederick, Maryland; Weisberg interview.Close That, of course, made it fairly difficult for any body-snatching vehicle, already on a very tight schedule, to deliver its goods as described by Lifton.Officials never lost contact with the casket, so the replacement of the allegedly altered corpse was impossible. General McHugh was always close to the coffin, McHugh letter to Time; Manchester, Death of a President, 399.Close never losing contact with it from the time it was unloaded from Air Force One until the ambulance parked at the mortuary jetty, where he assisted in its removal. In addition, FBI agents James W. Sibert and Francis X. O’Neill Jr. met the plane, watched the casket being removed and placed in the ambulance, followed it in the third car of the motorcade, kept the casket constantly in sight from the airport to the hospital, and then helped unload the casket and witnessed the autopsy. A key paragraph in their official report states as follows: The president’s body was removed from the casket in which it had been transported and was placed on the autopsy table, at which time the complete body was wrapped in a sheet and the head area contained an additional wrapping which was saturated with blood. Following the removal of the wrapping, it was ascertained that the president’s clothing had been removed and it was also apparent that a tracheotomy had been performed, as well as surgery of the head area, namely, in the top of the skull. All personnel with the exception of medical officers needed in the taking of photographs and x-rays were requested to leave the autopsy room and remain in the adjacent room. James W. Sibert and Francis X. O'Neill Jr., “Results of Autopsy on John F. Kennedy,” November 26, 1963, serial 89-30; reprinted in Harold Weisberg, Post Mortem (Frederick, Md.: by the author, 1975), 532-536.In early 1966, Weisberg discovered the report in the records of the Warren Commission in the National Archives. Later in the year he assisted Viking Press in its publicity for Edward Jay Epstein’s Inquest: The Warren Commission and the Establishment of the Truth (New York: Viking Press, 1966) by suggesting that the report be reproduced and distributed with the publicity packets. This the publisher did. Lifton states that his first knowledge of the report was from Epstein’s book.CloseTheir comment regarding the body’s condition matched the description testified to by the Dallas nurses who placed him in the coffin, information also absent from Lifton’s account. Nurse Diana Bowron: “We wrapped some extra sheets around his head so it wouldn’t look so bad.” 6H137.Close Nurse Margaret Henchliffe: “We . . . wrapped him up in sheets [and] he was placed in the coffin.” 6H141.CloseOn “surgery to the head” Sibert and O'Neill were mistaken, as Sibert later testified before the House Select Committee in 1977. “It was thought by the doctors [at the autopsy] that surgery had possibly been performed in the head-area,” but “this was determined not to be correct following detailed inspection and when the piece of bone found in the limousine was brought to the autopsy room during the later stages of the autopsy.” Staff interview of James W. Sibert, August 29, 1977, House Select Committee on Assassinations, doc. 002191, President John F. Kennedy Assassination Records Collection, National Archives, copy in Weisberg archives.CloseAdmiral George Burkley, President Kennedy's physician, and two Secret Service men who had been in the Parkland Hospital emergency room with JFK, as well as others, were in the autopsy room, sitting in the amphitheater audience. They had seen the corpse at Parkland and would have spotted any alterations immediately. Additionally, the X-ray photographs of the skull show jagged lines, not the clean, sharp lines of an operation. James Fox X rays of JFK, Weisberg archives.CloseNor was there any gray coffin used to spirit away JFK's corpse, although such coffins used for interring deceased military personnel were hardly unusual at Bethesda. The fact remains – based on witness testimony – that JFK’s body was indeed transported in a bronze casket, from which it was not removed until its arrival at Bethesda.Finally, it should go without saying that the complex logistics involved in perpetrating such an incredible feat would have required a large cast of conspirators able to communicate with each other and respond at a moment’s notice to shifting events. Among other things, it was not until Air Force One approached Washington that Jacqueline Kennedy made the decision to use Bethesda for the autopsy, which would have required conspirators to place duplicate teams at both Walter Reed and Bethesda. Furthermore, some conspirators had to have been on board the airplane to steal the body, fly it to Walter Reed, work on it there, transport it to Bethesda, and switch it to the bronze casket. The large but indeterminate number of conspirators would most likely have had to include air traffic controllers, enlisted men, military officers, special technicians, and medical personnel, all working together covertly and able to maintain silence forever. Under the weight of all these improbabilities, Lifton’s erroneous claims collapse.It never happened. The body was not stolen.

[tom jeffers]

steve manning wrote:Dealey Joe wrote:If there was in fact a throat wound I think it was a shrapnel wound.and if there was a second shot from the front it most likely came from the street drain which might explain the damage to the windsheild?Hey Joe,The storm drain theory has been debunked for some time now; I realize Gary Mack has no credibility on this forum, and I'm not sure he should? All questions about his personal views aside, even he had the good sense to place a camera in the drain to reveal the view from there. A shooter couldn't see far enough down the street to make such a shot, particularly prior to the Stemmons freeway sign where JFK was first hit.Did you watch the Youtube videos in my first post? The trajectory of the windsheild hole and the neck wound obviously traces back via a certain trajectory, which apparently is best fit by the south knoll (I've never been there). Check it out if you haven't yet.Stevei do not agree that they have beenn debunked. given the current grade of the street, it is not possible to get a shot however there have been many layers of road added since 1963 that have tampered with the road as it was.

[steve manning]

Dealey Joe wrote:Well i don't really know where it came from or if it did.The throat wound looks like a bullet hole for sure. it could have been bullet fragmentts, glass or a peice of the car.Gill has that bullet bouncing around quite a bit.you know strange things that are not readily explainable do happen.The tie hole looks like a tare and not what I would think as a bullet going thru it.we would need to have a little information on the caliber in order to figure ballistics.In my opinion Files' .222 with a 45 grain bullet at over 3,000 fps would explode on contact andI am not sure you could tell exactly where it came from.thanks for discusing it with me.Hi Joe,At this point, 46 years after the fact, this game is all about "likelyhood"...obviously nobody knows for sure, but based on the evidence we have, all we can really do is make an educated guess as to what was most likely. I personally believe too much interpretive gymnastics is required to believe the fragment/shrapnel theory. In other words, why fight it, its easier to believe another shooter (someone besides Files) was aiming at JFK from a place where the windshield was in the way (most likely the south knoll). Please read my original post or at least my comments below.As I said in my first post on this thread, from the south knoll a shooter would have apparently had no choice but to aim through the windshield, not at JFK's throat, but right between his eyes! However, the windshield would have probably deflected the bullet slightly downward. The glass was not bulletproof, and a high velocity round could have penetrated with much certainty. Of course you can also see Connally react as if something was going by his left ear as Gil Jesus shows in the Zapruder film. Likelyhood....thats all. Thanks for readingSteve