Was the Followup Car Blocking a Shot at Z313?

[RobertP]

I know that some of the members live in Dallas, or close to Dallas, while others, such as myself, live many thousands of miles away. For this reason, I am putting forward an idea and hoping someone, with better access to Dealey Plaza than myself, might want to test it out.What got me going on my "quest" was a post, on another forum, by a fellow who claimed he and his friends were in Dealey Plaza late one night and, with very little traffic going through, decided to do some tests of their own. What they did was get one guy positioned at the z313 location on Elm St. and, estimating the distance the follow up car would have been behind the limo, had the other guys stand in the position the SS agents would have been in. The guy playing JFK then looked back at the Sniper's Nest and discovered his "SS agents" were blocking his view of the SN.Now, I know this was not exactly a scientific method of testing a theory, and they likely had a few beers in them by this point, but the basics still intrigued me. As you all know, not a single reenactment or animation has ever included the follow up car behind the limo, and perhaps there is a good reason for this.However, there is more to this than that. I'm not sure how many of you have seen this before but, long before the Single Bullet Theory made its debut, the FBI believed they knew exactly when and where all three shots occurred, and their interpretation bore no resemblance to the SBT.On January 20, 1964, the FBI sent a 65 page report, including a visual aids brochure of the 3-D model they had made of Dealey Plaza, to the Warren Commission, who gave it the designation Commission Document 298. Below is a link to one of those visual aids:https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/arch ... ageId=22As it states, the FBI believed this to be the location of the second shot, and they also believe this shot struck only John Connally. They place this shot 262 feet from the Sniper's Nest which, coincidentally, is only 3 feet less than where the WC placed the head shot at z313, at 265 feet. As noted, the FBI determined the down hill angle of this shot to be 18°.The next two links show where the FBI determined the third shot, that struck JFK in the head, occurred. Note that it occurred close to the Grassy Knoll steps, right where several witnesses claimed it occurred.https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/arch ... geId=26The FBI placed the head shot at 307 feet from the Sniper's Nest, not at 265 feet, as claimed by the WC. This is rather startling when one considers the FBI supposedly had access to the same Zapruder film you and I have access to. The film we have seen clearly shows the head shot at z313, and a straight line from z313 to the 6th floor SE window definitely measures out to 265 feet. This fact alone is, in my view, definite proof of alteration of the Zapruder film. How else could the FBI place the explosive head shot 45 feet further down Elm St. from z313, if they were not watching an unaltered version of the Zapruder film?Considering the serious risk they were taking in moving the head shot 45 feet up the road to z313, should the contents of CD 298 ever be revealed to the public, the obvious question, to me anyways, is WHY would they move the head shot 45 feet closer to the TSBD? At z313, Oswald might have been a bit hurried to get the last shot off but, at 307 feet, he had all the time in the world to take careful aim at JFK. So, why move it?I believe the answer lies in the request I have made of the members here. At 262 feet, the angle of the shot was 18°, while at 307 feet, that angle had diminished to 15°. What if it eventually dawned on one of the geniuses at the FBI that, at such a low angle, the view a shooter in the Sniper's Nest had of JFK might have been blocked by the occupants of the follow up car? An important thing to also remember about Elm St. is that it slopes downhill to the Triple Underpass at an angle of 3.13° (5.46% grade) and this would place JFK that much lower than the follow up car and its occupants. How much lower? One very sharp fellow at another forum has determined the drop from the pavement in front of the steps of the TSBD, to the position of z313, to be 11.76 feet.So, any of you Dallasites interested in testing this out? Without the beer, of course.

[Bob]

Very interesting synopsis, Robert.

[RobertP]

Oops, just realized I posted two links to Page 25 of WCD 298, instead of links to Pages 25 & 26. Page 26 gives a very good view of the FBI model depicting the last shot occurring almost at the steps at the base of the Grassy Knoll, instead of back up at the z313 position. I have edited the post to include Page 26.When you look at this model, keep in mind that the FBI had access to the Zapruder film, prior to choosing this location for the fatal head shot. Were they watching the same film you and I saw?

[Slav]

I think the tree was in the way at this shot I think it came from the Dal tex, look at Lbj secret service jumping out of the car, why didn't jfk secret service react

[RobertP]

Slav wrote:I think the tree was in the way at this shot I think it came from the Dal tex, look at Lbj secret service jumping out of the car, why didn't jfk secret service reactIt is a popular misconception that LBJ's SS agents were exiting the car in the Altgens 6 photo. Other pictures taken through out the motorcade show this same door to be in the open position at several other locations.However, what we should be taking from the Altgens 6 photo is the complete lack of startled reactions on the faces of the crowd, even though, according to the WC, a rifle has been fired directly above the heads of these people, almost three seconds before this photo was taken. Startle reactions to loud gunshots are involuntary and, invariably, instantaneous. The only two people reacting, aside from JFK, are the two SS agents standing on the right side of the follow up car, both seen looking to the rear. Very likely, a suppressed (silenced) shot from a lower floor of the Dal-Tex Building has just missed their heads on its way to JFK's back, and broken the sound barrier on the way by. As this mini-sonic boom would only be startling to those close to it, like the crack of a bull whip, the people on the sidewalk might take a few more seconds for the unusual sound to register.

[JDThomas]

Interesting point I remember from Gerry Hemming talking about filming 'JFK' with Oliver Stone. He claims that they shot a lot of unused footage looking at viewing angles of various possible sniper poisitions. One point I remember Hemming making was that a shot from the lower floors of the Daltex was all but impossible beacuse of the follow-up car and the SS men riding it. (funny how this car is 'missing' in a number of the official reconstructions too insn't it?)I wonder if it would be worth checking with Oliver Stone's people whether the footage is still available. Their exact survey positions may be off (if they used the offical FBI plath), but they could provide a useful pointer.

[RobertP]

Hi JDIt is a slow and painful process but, I am slowly putting together a visual, based on a right angle triangle, inside of which I am placing a sloping line with an angle of 3.13°. This line represents Elm St., sloping downhill to the TUP, and it is possible to place the limo and follow up car on this line. By placing the follow up car varying distances from the limo, we should be able to see if a six foot man, standing on one foot above the pavement on the running board of a '56 Cadillac, is tall enough to cross the line of the bullet trajectory or not.P.S.It would be great to speak with Oliver Stone's people. Not sure how to contact them, though.

[Dealey Joe]

[JDThomas]

Partial follow-up about Hemming working on the JFK movie:Some Ballistics questions02 November 2005 - 05:59When we finished the shooting of "JFK", Hargraves and I went over to Frederick, MD to once again visit with Harold Weisberg. He had a somewhat different version of the M/Carcano in his "Office", and this one didn't have a scope attached. After getting past his disagreements with Oliver Stone, I went into the fact that our movie armorer had to cut the very strong bolt spring in half, in order that Gary Oldman, Kostner, and Sanders might work the action rapidly.This seemed to astound him, and I looked at his wife -- seeking a response if we were over-taxing his waning energies -- but she nodded OK. I further explained to Harold that said mainspring is so strong that, with the action cocking upon opening the bolt [as opposed to the British SMLE Enfield, which cocks upon bolt closing, making it one of the fastest bolt actions made] causes the shoulder stock to be rotated out of the shoulder position. This Mauser type action, though much more fluid in the Wehrmacht's "Kar-98" in use throughout WWII, on rare occasions required use of the sling -- especially for 1,000 metre shots.The Japanese Arisaka "Meiji-38" used the "Mauser" straight shank [WWI issue] bolt, and it too would sometimes cause the weapon to be pulled from the shoulder. So, Harold said: "....What you are telling me is that LHO would have had to return the shoulder-stock back into his shoulder the first time he reloaded...and this would cause how much interval between shots...?" I told him that Stone had sent the whole crew down to the rifle range the first week in Dallas, where we fired live rounds in a dozen different models/brands of rifles and carbines. Everybody lost the shoulder seating upon "cranking", and this required more time to reacquire the target using the scope. So we switched to not using the scope, and instead used the "iron-sights" -- but, without a "PROPER" leather sling, shoulder seat was lost every time.Further, I explained that in order to aquire/re-aquire a target with the alleged LHO scope, the shooter's eye had to be within a half inch of the rear of the scope; thus due to heavy recoil: the shooter gets a "black eye" !!Moreover, I mentioned that when Stone had rented the "6th Floor Museum" for 3 hours of our use, I had pointed out to Bob Groden that: with the bottom of the window-sill just 7+ inches above the floor, that a shooter [with LHO's upper torso measurements] would have great difficulty "hunching-down" so as to shoot through the window -- which only opened to the half-way point. I further pointed out that the FBI re-enactment photos show that the man holding the rifle is practically a midget, which you can verify with comparative measurement of the M/Carcano versus his upper torso.BTW: A Silencer/Suppresor will leak smoke even after the first shot, due to an accumulation of gases within the tube, which acts to both give more accuracy & range [more burning of powder] and reduces the noise level.Rice Krispies !!Gerry

[Dealey Joe]

Please notice the low and the right angle of the shot that struck the windshield frame, badly damaged the visor bracket, damaged the Rear view mirror and I believe cracked the windshield and quite possibly sent shrapnel on that caused damage to James Tague, I am also beginning to believe this may well be the shot from the rear that went through JFK's skull?