Who is Thom Hartmann?

[dankbaar]

Thom Hartmann has a website and a radio show an he is co-author of Ultimate Sacrifice, a book on the JFK assassination with Lamar Waldron.From: Wim Dankbaar Sent: zaterdag 17 juli 2010 15:52To: 'Thom@thomhartmann.com'Cc: 'webmaster@thomhartmann.com'Subject: Thom , who are you? Thom, Are you for real? I don't know what to make of you. In 1993 you did an extensive radio interview with the late Chauncey Holt (See below).His veracity is beyond questioning to me. Yet I read on the Internet that you decided he was a fake charlatan. Moreover, you appeared to be concerned that the interview transcript was floating on the Internet, when I made you aware of it a few years ago. Can you explain to me your opinion on Chauncey Holt? Thanks in advance,Wim Subject: Holt2Date: 11-Jun-93 at 08:25 From: Thom Hartmann, 76702,765TO: Anthony Marsh,72127,2301 1>lking about.A: Harvey was there.Q: OK, William Harvey.A: That is the only one. Q: OK.A: Cause I don't think there was anybody else there. But I have all, I have the initials of everyone on there. On the top as who was there and discussed this. And I scribbled this on a two pageQ: What name were you going under at that time?A: December 1970. Pardon me?Q: What name were you going under?A: Sigler. Q: Was this the first timeQ: Did you know Harvey before then?Q: That is what I was going to ask. So this was the first time you met with William Harvey?A: That is the first time I met him.Q: Was at this meeting?A: Yeah. It was at this meeting. Q: Who vouched for you? Who established your bonifides to be at that meeting?A: Licabore. Q: Who many approximately were there?A: There was probably as many as eight people there. I, but I will have to look on the sheet and see who, that was there.Q: Fax that to me tomorrow.A: I will.Q: I have got a fax.A: Oh, yeah. Q: What was the purpose of this meeting?A: Well they were, they were, that is when they were going to discuss, the first time, that I had ever heard of Mongoose. As a matter of fact, they were discussingQ: Was he called Mongoose that day?A: No, I don't think so. I think that what, I think they more or lese decided they were going to call him Mongoose cause they were, they were talking about what acronym they were going to use and they said well obviously we can't use anything that we can't use Cuba. We can't use, we won't be able to use that, why don't we use something over in Thailand or something like that. So they, Thailand, that was MO, and they were thinking well, you know, well how about Mongoose. You know. So that is how they came up with that. Q: I am sorry -A: No go ahead.Q: So OK, the purpose of the meeting was just kind of a general planning meeting?A: A general planning meeting as to what was going to take off. We actually, we actually did absolutely practically nothing as far as, you know, as far as Mongoose was Q: When you say we, you mean?A: Licabole.Q: Licabole and yourself.A: You know Licabole at that time was, he was quite up in years, and I doubt that, you know, if they would I mean, they only selected the thing because of he knew Giancana and Roselli real well. And, they probably felt they were rather safe because the Grace Ranch was a fortress. Had a tremendously huge gate, all kinds of security, and but, although they were always worried about sweeping it for bugs you know. If we went out, I went out and talked to Licaboli cause it hadn't have been swept very recently, we used to go out, where the cattle were, you know, and get out in the corral, or where the cattle roaming around you know.Q: So Licaboli really didn't, he didn't do much?A: He didn't do anything at all.Q: Was there any role?A: No, exceptQ: Kind of providing a place for meetings?A: Yes and providing the airstrip if anybody needed to beQ: An airstrip?A: To come into there, an airstrip. Or, if they were anybody wanted to come in from out of the country illegally, they chose that route. They came to Frank Milanos place, in Vera Cruze. He had a ranch in Vera Cruze. Then they would fly into, they would come into Tucson, you can come in there. The, uh, surveillance coming in,you know, when you come across, where you come across in tucson, I have a mental block, I can't think of the name of that Mexican town. A little Mexican town, they came across there and they had, the terrain was very good, the terrain for flying. That you could fly under any kind of radar. That was the traditional, that was the traditional route for, and when Frank Camarado, who was Q: Drugs?A: Yeah, drugs. And, when Frank Camarado who was Lickaboli's brother-in-law, he was deported twice and that he came back over, both times that route, and he was in Havana when he died. He was in Havana getting ready to come back the third time. So they fly out, they fly out from anywhere they wanted to. Central America, or anywhere, they would fly into Frank Milano's place and then on up toQ: Right on out?A: They would fly right on out.Q: Let me ask you, that was the first time you met Harvey, did you have dealings with him later?A: Not much. Q: What would be?A: Not much.Q: Did you see him later or ever talk to him again?A: Well, maybe.Q: You didn't know that he was Central Intelligence that day?A: Oh yeah, yeah.Q: Well did you know Angleton?A: No, I knew of him. I knew who Angleton was. Never met him.Q: So on Harvey, you said you did or didn't talk to him again later?A: Oh yeah, I talked to him from time to time. Over the years, you know, all the way up until they, until they cashiered him out and so forth.Q: Was that like on an official level? Or, like an example.A: You know sort of a quasi official thing, you know, and but, he was meeting with, he was meeting all the time, meeting a lot of times with Roselli and he was meeting with Giancana, and meeting with Mayhew. Q: Do you recall any other specific time when you did meet, like in the 60's? Maybe?A: No. Q: Or may have talked to him?A: I can't remember. After thatQ: After that one meeting, in FebruaryA: The Bay of Pigs. No, I can't remember any specific conversations unless I, unless I had time to actually look through all these, I got just, I got boxes and boxes of stuff that has been stored in one place or another and every now and then I come across. I had all this stuff, I mean, I kept all this stuff all these years. And, the stuff back there, I probably never have any kind of a need for it you know, then I would keep it you know.Q: How many hours approximately can you remember how many hours that,December, 1960 meeting lasted?A: It was quite a while. Of course, it was almost likeQ: A socialQ: December 6, 61.A: 61.Q: This was after the Bay of Pigs?A: Yes.Q: 61, December 61. A: Well, you know it lasted quite a while because it was sort of a social type thing too. And I assume, I am just saying, but I assume that probably Roselli and Giancana, and Licaboli were also talking about other things. Now when you came there, the Grace Ranch was set up like a motel. I mean they had a lot of, you know, just little, looked like a motel. You know, except the big ranch house. And, so everybody stayed there and everybody had their own rooms and this that and the other. And Q: Sounds like a nice resort.A: Oh yeah, had two olympic sized swimming pools, and had a riding stable,Q: Had you been going there for a long time?A: Oh yeah. I had been there a long time. Q: I just noticed a couple of other people, we talked a lot about MontoyaQ: Let me ask you one question about this, what about communications did you all establish any way to communicate with each other? Say you get in touch with me, in this way or, were there any codes or any?A: Well when I talked, when I talked to Licaboli, and the same thing if I talked to anyone else, Licaboli, for instance, or if he called me, he had a list of probably a half a dozen public telephones. He would call me, say in Beverly Hills, he would call me. And he would, then I, he would ask me to call him back and he would say, #1, #2 or so forth, at such a time, and then I would call him back. And this was the way we operated almost with anybody, unless, if you were to go and talk to someone, or somebody called you and there was something innocent. And of course, that always was sometimes was kind of bad because Licaboli, when they were trying to nail Licaboli, and he had purchased this painting. These two kids had stolen a painting from their -- and was scribbling in my own hand writing, there is a lot of stuff, on there. That a lot of stuff on there, so that was that meeting and I don't remember how long it lasted, except for the meetings, the initials that are on there, I don't Q: Do you remember if they were discussing like assinating Castro?A: Oh yeah. They were talking, oh yeah. They were talking about, they were talking about assinating Kenn, then they were talking about weapons and they were talking about assination him, what they were going to have to do and so forth, that is all on the memo. The full thing, just like, it is almost like the minutes of a corporate board meeting. Just sitting there, you know.Q: What, what, let me ask you too, cause we customs, a lot of people know a lot about Bousch and Visciana andA: Oh yeah.Q: And we talked about Montoya. Lets, we just want to get as much as you know about this guy named Serra. What do you know about him? Like when did you meet him? What he knew about?A: Uh, well we met him, oh we probably met him 59 or 60. Maybe. Uh, and knew him up through oh, up until he got killed. Which was in the 70's. And, we were in Puerto Rico three or four days before, that heQ: You mean in 59?A: No, no in, before he got killed.Q: Oh I see, OK.A: We had met him, he was from, he was from Puerto Rico. And, so he was down there and he had been making apparently they,he had been making, he had been making some statements about us. We went down to ask him if that was actually true. And uh, then, a few days later, you now, just, you know he was killed. Q: What was he doing? You said you met him around 59, what kind of things was he doing in 60, 61, 62, 63?A: Well he was a part of the, one of those violent Cuban groups, you know, he was connected with Alfa 66, and he was connected with Mono Blanco with the White Hand, two or three otherQ: Where did he mainly operate out of? Do you know?A: What area?Q: Yeah.A: Miami.Q: So he was one of the Miami guys?A: Yeah. He was in the Miami group. He was into terrorism, no matter what. Q: Terrorism in terms of hitting people, blowing stuff up?A: Anybody. Blowing up airplanes, anything else. He was just as violent as Olan Babarge.Q: Do you know if he ever made any trips into Cuba or anything like that?A: Yeah, he was in Cuba all the time. Q: Where he was ever one of the people who tried to assassinate Castro? Is that anything ever talked about?A: I don't remember specifically talking about it, but it probably could be. Q: What do you think happened to him after that day in Dallas?A: Oh, I think he went back, probably went back to Miami. Q: Did youA: And, uh, I got a lot of stuff on himQ: On Serabus?A: I, weQ: Did we get to finish this thing?Q: This is amazing.Q: What actually happened? A: I mean I always felt that hey wait a minute, Q: Description in 1963, how would you describe it to somebody?A: About an average height. About 5'8 or 9. You know typically Latin look.Q: But what did he look like? A: Oh, yeah he looked Latin. Q: Black hair? Dark hair?A: Very dark hair, dark, very dark eyes, uh, Q: Complexion?A: Had the dark Latin complexion, wore a beard a lot of the time. Variations ofQ: Like mine?A: Sometimes he would have a little beard. Sometimes he would have a Van Dyke, sometimes he had a mustache, lot of times he was clean shaven.Q: Sort of like Lauren Bacall?A: He was very, he, actually he was very, very unassuming guy. I mean actually, no more than Bousch. You know Bousch, you look at Bousch and know he looks like a professional man. Which he is. You know, and he looked like it and you would never, ever think that he was what he was. It was the same way with, the same way with Serapin. Very few of those guys, we had some of them up there that really looked, they really looked what they are. What they were. But, he was very, very, very unassuming. Low key. Very quiet.Q: Did he have a heavy accent?A: No, not really a heavy accent. I mean, he didn't have any trouble, he didn't have any trouble articulating. You know, and his accent, his accent wasn't like the traditional ones that you see, you know, that is Spanish from Puerto Rico. Because he, it was, he was more like a high class you know, more cultured.Q: Castillian?A: Yeah, more cultured type of tone. But,Q: When was probably the next time you ran into him after November 63? Was it a long time?A: Oh no, I didn't see him, I didn't see him until we went down to see him in, in uh, went down to see him in 75. Q: So it was, so it was that long beforeA: No, I didn't, I had no contact, I had no contact with him. I forget what he was telling, he was going around and, somebody said that, oh, this information, this information came from, this information came from Serapin. So we went down to Q: Check it out?A: To talk to him and ask him if, hey, you know, you, you know, if you got any of a loose mouth, you know. What we want to find out about it, see, then, of course, a few days later he got killed. And, we, they neverQ: They tried to blame you all?A: Yeah. But, well, they found out we was there but that was about all. There wasn't really any way to really connect us up with it you know, we just happened to be there. We just were down there ostensibly on vacation at the Caribele. Q: Another guy kind of like him is this Bayard guy. What can you tell us about him?A: You mean Robert Bayard?Q: Yeah. A: Well, Bayard was a, he was a gun runner like you know, sold all kinds of weapons.Q: Was he American?A: Oh yeah, he was a Texan. Q: Oh, OK. So, A: He was, well he was like Vick Stadder or you know, he knew all those guys. Vick Stadder, Cottondale, probably knew Mason, sold all kinds of weapons.Q: Is that what he was doing say in 63? Was he still doing a lot of gun?A: Oh, yeah.Q: Who would somebody like that be running guns to and from? Around 63?A: Most of them to you know, most of them, that was the, you know, the Cuban groups. They were about the only ones that were in the business of buying guns. I mean, same way as like you know Reynolds, he probably sold guns to Reynolds too. Reynolds had a big, he had a big facility down there.Q: What was Bayard's description? Do you have any photos of him, do you?Q: Yeah.Q: How does he, what does he look like? Do you remember?A: Well, Q: I know it has been a long time.A: Well, yeah, you know he looks like, he was a typical, he looked like a typical American, you know. Uh, he looks like, maybe like a little younger version of McKeon, one of those guys. But, nothing about his appearance you know that makes him stand out. Q: You knew Thomas Mason?A: John. Well I didn't know him, we sent a lot of stuff over to him back and forthQ: You had never seen him?A: No. So we sent a lot of stuff back and forth to him. We got a lot of ammunition from him. We did a lot of reloading. We did a lot of reloading. Q: Did you ever meet him in person? Mason?A: No. Q: Over what period of time did you sent him and currently do, have dealings with him, during the 61, 62, 63, 64?A: Up until, well we didn't have any dealings with him, we didn't have any dealings with him after probably uh, maybe, 64, 65 something like that.Q: How did you find out he was partners with Harralson? A: We had heard he was partners with him.Q: So that was just kind of the rumor mill?A: Yeah. Q: That they were in it together?A: He's partners with Harralson. I would swear to that. Q: In November, November 3rd, where the unregistered license in --, ammunition, John Thomas Mason had went to prison, November of 1963.Q: He was at the county jail, I mean the city jail when Oswald came in.Q: That is right.Q: Oh absolutely.Q: Oh yeah he went to prison.A: How long was he in? Do you know?Q: A couple of three years, wasn't he?A: Federal rap?Q: Probably Federal.A: Was it a ATF deal?Q: Another one of these guys A: Did they have, excuse me, good solid evidence against him?Q: Yeah.Q: For unregistered ammunition, that is what they got him on.Q: I think they got him once for selling an automatic, wasn't it?Q: Yeah. But not, it was NovemberA: I thought he was a Class 3 dealer. Q: Maybe it was who he sold it to. A: Oh, maybe that is right. When he was killed. Q: When Bayard was killed?A: He was killedQ: He was shot July 3rd.Q: It was in 75 also when Serraphin was killed, right?A: He was killed in October.Q: OK. A: Bayard was killed in July. Q: OK.A: Hoffa was killed in July.Q: Where was Bayard killed? Do you know?A: Atlanta. Q: Oh, that is right, that was theA: I was withQ: That was on Oak andA: We got covered up, I remember that. Flew him over there. Q: I will look bad in front of the microphone, when I get back.Q: Now on Eschavera, cause that is who we are particularly interested in. Gary, how would you describe him physically? If you had to give a description of him?A: Well, he didn't look as, he didn't look as Latin as, well Montoya didn't exactly look Latin, I mean Montoya looked like, he looked like he might have been some other extraction. It was hard to say from his accent, course he might have been. But he didn't look, Eschavera, didn't look as, he didn't look asQ: Can you pronounce that, cause I always mis-pronounce it?A: Eschavera, Etchaparia, Homer Etchaparia. Uh, he didn't look, he wasn't as Latin as he actually -- What the hell was the name of the lawyer that moved down from, came down from Chicago, Paulino?Q: Sierra?Q: Yeah Sierra.A: He was a, he knew him very well. And he was in part of his program and he had, at one time, had some kind of an obscure job with United Car Company, something like that, and he was trying to, get away, I think from the traditional Cuban image. He was trying to improve his, trying to improve his image, you know, and he spoke quiteQ: He was more Anglo?A: Yeah, right. He was a, he would like to appear, cause he sort of looked like a, he looked more like an Anglo.Q: Again, do you remember like height, weight?A: No.Q: Any kind of appearance?A: No, nothing unusual. Except, I would say he was bigger than, I started to say bigger than most Cubans. But some of them were pretty big. Uh, he was probably he is taller than I am. He is probably 5'7", something like that.Q: So he was like taller than Montoya maybe?A: Yeah. No, he wasn't taller than Montoya. Montoya, was uh, Montoya was a little bit taller than I am. Q: So you think maybe about the same height?A: Yeah. About the same height. You know 170 lbs. probably, you know.Q: Dark hair?A: Oh yeah, dark, dark hair.Q: I always have to ask that because I see that picture of Dee Aslantans.A: Yeah. No, dark hair, not Hispanic, not too dark, not too dark a complexion. Like he had a little, sight mixture of Caucasian and Cuban. But nothing that made him stand out except he wore dark glasses, whichQ: That is unusual.A: Yeah, he wore glasses. And, I don't think, well Bayard wore glasses too. Q: Like in Dallas that day were either of them wearing glasses that day, do you remember?A: Yeah, they both were wearing glasses. I think they wore glasses all the time. Q: When you are like me you have to. A: I did too. But most of the time.Q: Let me ask you some other things. These are other things that are like mentioned in the manuscript, just want to get a little more detail on them. Did you ever meet E. Howard Hunt, or just know him by reputation?A: Oh yeah, I met him, you know, but I mean I met him back there quite a ways back. When he was involved in the Bay of Pigs before he got, well he got into, he got into a hassle with, with uh, someone else, I forget who it was. Somebody higher, somebodyQ: Yeah there was a big flack.A: There was a big flap and they brought in a guy by the name of, I think his name was Engineer, I remember. Cause he talked that shit quite a bit. I think his name was Will Car, I believer it is and he, now this guy came in and he really spoke, he really spoke very, very you know fluent Spanish. I mean, he spoke Spanish like a native.Q: Now was this the guy who kind of replaced Hunt, or not?A: Yeah he replaced Hunt in the Bay of Pigs.Q: When did you first meet Hunt?A: Bout the, he of course I don't think he was, I don't remember him being down in, I don't remember seeing him in Quatemala in 54. Probably when they were getting ready for the, probably when they were getting ready for the Bay of Pigs. And he was in and out of,he was in and out of Miami all that time before they took those guys and took them down to, you know, right to the, they were staying in Opelika at that time and they had a barracks up down there. And they Q: How would you kind of run into him? Where would you see him?A: He would go, he was very, very close to the, he was very, very close to the Cubans you know. And uh, he was using that, he was using a name uh, Q: Edwardo.A: Edwardo, yeah, they called him, the, he was Edwardo. And they were always talking about him always talking about Edwardo. You know, and so, I didn't know, I didn't realize probably until a few months later that his name was really E. Howard Hunt. You know, Everet Howard Hunt. Q: Some people didn't realize it until 70. A: So I didn't really know that, I didn't really know that that was what his name was. You know, but, I, we found out that, you know, that that was what it was where they had this flap on with Car and somebody mentioned that you know, they said hey, there is you know, the guy who is, I don't know whether it was, I don't know whether it was Tracy Barnes that couldn't get along with him. Or, maybe it was Bissell himself.Q: Did you run into Hunt after the Bay of Pigs? Do you remember?A: I remember -- to the Bay of Pigs. Uh, I don't know whether he came out, I don't know whether he was, I don't think he went out to California or not when he came out there to, they came out to Dr. Fielding's office. And, Gordon Liddy was out there though and Eugeno Martinez was out there. And somebody else. Somebody came in and said he was a detective and came in and said he was from Technical Services Division and needs photographic work done. And some processing and we had a really good processing film, but I am not sure what or not that, what connections, what kind. I certainly didn't have any close connection.Q: Cause I was going to ask you if you had heard from that Martinez Sturges?A: Yeah. Well, yeah Sturgis, I sort of I met him. But there again, I really never had anything to do with Sturgis, or Martinez either, because although I mean he was a legend down there and was going back and forth to Havana all the time. You know, and Bernard Barker, oh yeah, he was another one that was out there in California. Q: Yeah.A: I didn't, I never knew him either.Q: How about Perry Williams or Arteme?A: No.Q: Manuel Ortega?A: No, you mean the golden boy?Q: Yep.A: Well, you know the problem is, I really think I think I really knew him at one time because uh, he was partners or somebody he knew. He was partners with Bee Bee Reboso in a meat processing plant or something there in Miami. And when I saw pictures later of him, you know, and it just seemed like that that was that. But I don't really know one way or the other or not.Q: I know we have talked about some of these people like Christian Dobeed and those people, did you ever know any of those guys? Who were you know involved in that French connection? Kind of? Drug smuggling thing? Some of that went up like through Montreal, like Sartee, you know these names better than I would. Belard, any of those guys?A: Except the one we, that we learned through, when we got the official, when the examined, they did the study in Atlanta, why all those guys were dying. Q: Thats, did you reach him there?A: See, what happened is so, the guy came in one day, he came in the office there in at the hospital and said hey I got, I really got something for you here. And, the point is that he has got this, for your eyes only, for the Wardens eyes only, study of, for the FBI, study of why eleven people were killed in five days in Atlanta. See, I still have got the report. You will find that fascinating reading.Q: That would be interesting.A: Because they got diagrams of the thing and how, boy the way they use, this guy was chocked to death. This guy, got him with a hatchet. This guy was burned to death. And they were all, they never used the same method. Well but one I really, that really thought was how they did, how they killed Orceede. Dominick Orceede. Uh, they said that he was part of the, he was in the witness protection program, but, the prison authorities at Atlanta had not been advised, and so they didn't stick him. They put him out in the population. Well they killed him. Vincent Poppa, they killed him the same day. But some of them they found out who they were. I mean, what happened, some of them were out and out contracts, that was left there in the institution and they -- The only thing that he would shrink from. Anything else he didn't. Q: He would do?A: He would do anything at all and liked doing it. I mean he made, he made a fortune in real estate and didn't mean a thing to him. I mean, you could talk to him, he would make a, he would sell some property, make money, -- but you mention a scam to him. I don't care if it was you know, minor or not, and his eyes would light up. He, I think he, I think he really, I think that is what kept him alive. He would complain to me, the press was bothering, the press was harassing me but, I am nothing but a bootlegger. I haven't done nothing in my life, you know, they were running around with a suitcase full of stolen securities, you know, we are trying to sell.Q: Speaking with Lemoy too, how did he feel about Robert Kennedy's crack down on organized crime? Was he as much of a target? Did he like, I would assume he would be kind of pissed off.A: Well he was. And, of course, he was, he you know, he thought he was grandstanding and he said that you know he had often commented about the fact that, hell Joe Kennedy made his fortune you know, in doing that and he had all these bootlegging friends and everything, why should they treat me any different than say the Rosenfields or the Bonthans? I mean, we were all in the same business at that time. And, of course, he simply detested Kennedy. Q: Bobby?A: BobbyQ: Bobby more than John?A: Yeah. Either one of them and he said oh they are grandstanding and this and that and the other. Trying to make hay out of us and he would say of course, hey look, they are harassing us. See, he would say that. They were harassing him.Q: What do you think, just personally think, about all the theories that organized crime was basically behind Kennedy's assignation?A: Well,Q: Or did you ever hear any of the talk in those kind of terms?A: Well, they certainly, they were interested in -- In that they wasn't the type of -- I think, my own personal opinion, is they would have done it -- Between all of the intelligence agencies and organized crime. And disorganized crime, criminals of all stripes, they went very, very deep. And they scratched each others backs. But you will find, you will never find a Mafia hit like the Kennedy assignation. They do not hit that way. I mean, they, they they do not. It is just like the example of how they killed Albert Anastasia. OK. They go up behind Albert Anastasis, they shot him eleven times. Or shoot eleven times. Standing right behind him. Five shots miss, and of the other shots, only the final shot, is fatal. The Mafia, none of those Mafia killers, are really, really skilled like snipers and that sort of thing. They can't depend on that. They depend on up close and personal. They depend on bombs and so forth. And, but any other reason I would say hey, the organized crime per se, didn't do it, but, they did, they would say they might, they might utilize someone else you know. Now Harralson, of course, he shot Wood, he shot him with a rifle. Didn't he?Q: Uh, huh.A: How far away was he? Do you know?Q: Was he close?A: Fairly close.Q: I would, he was, it sticks in my mind he was close enough that it was an easy rifle shot. A: What was he doing? Getting in his car or something?Q: Yeah, getting in his car.Q: Seems to me, like he wasn't over 75 yards. A: Yeah, well, thats point blank.Q: That is point blank. A: Yeah, with a rifle. So, I would, if I tell you this, if somebody like, I will comment on the person I knew best, that was Licabaldi. Licabaldi was typical of those guys that had, that had, was involved in three of the most sensational murders in the twentieth century. He was a principal, he had planned, he had planned, he had probably been responsible for killing 100 people. Q: Are you stating it?A: I am talking about the murder of Jerry Buckley, in Detroit, the crusading radio commentator, who played both sides of the street, you know, just like Jake Lingle did in Chicago. He was friends, he took money and then decided he would turn on them. The second one was the killing of the beer baron of Toledo, who's name was Jackie Kennedy, he shot him. Killed him and his four body guards, that is what Yoni Vicaboldi, his brother, went to prison for. And of course, the third and the most famous was the St. Valentines Day Massacre, you know, because they were the ones that, it was because of them, you know, it was their trucks that Buggs Moran -- Told that there was going to be a incident created and it was going to be in Miami. Then we it was the thing changed, and they -- got to be changed and either got to be in San Antonio or Houston, or Dallas, or someplace like that. These people but they never, ever -- Creates some problems for these, for -- And after that, there won't be any more romancing between Kennedy and Castro. I never heard the word.Q: Who is they?A: Well it came, who, the guy was talking about that, was Q: Who was telling you?A: Philip Twombly was telling us. Also, things came from Frances Sherry -- Ex-CIA guy that was down in, was down in Mexico. And, we were hearing from, we heard it from a lot of different sources. We heard from Lee Echols, there was aQ: Who was Lee Echols?A: Lee Echols was an ex-CIA guy that was living in San Diego at that time. I don't thinkQ: -- (can't hear) we had something very similar right here, it was planned just before the Kennedy visit here, we have got some police department memos, where the, they were planning, where General Walker, wasn't he the -- and his group were planning to create an incident and blame it, make it appear and it was Les Winters doing it. And we have got it right out here, on police memos.Q: Police memos. A: Well that was essentiallyQ: It was like Echols and Twomley and Sheridan.A: Echols, Twomley, as a matter of fact, I don't think, whoever, Echols was the guy that said hey, that we are getting, we are getting this stuff from, comes right down from Desmond Fitzgerald who is the, who is now the, is chief of the Cuban desk at Langley. Now, Desmond Fitzgerald, had come back from the Far East, he had been the, he had been chief of station, I mean division chief of the far east division, which is a plum, I mean boy, I mean, you want, that is what yo want to be. Coming back to take over the Cuban desk, at Langley, in my opinion, and everybody else I talked to, was like almost like a demotion for him. And they were saying that, I never, I couldn't , I couldn't swear I have said, I have said in the book, and it is my own personal opinion, I have said in the book that David Fitzgerald, Gordon Meyer, were responsible for somebody high up in the CIA, had to know, it wasn't some rogue agents, some rouge agents, they wouldn't really take this on their own, I don't believe that they would. I don't think they could, I don't believe they could at all. Maybe they could, maybe they couldn't. So, there is a hell of a lot in there that is supposition from what people are telling me, what they were telling us and what people who are now most, a lot of people are now dead. Gordon Meyer I think is still alive. Course naturally he would swear up and down this is blasphemy. I mean, this is, this is taking a man with an honorable, long career, you know, and black balling him. And if you were wrong about it, you would sure hate, you would sure as hell hate to do it. Q: That is why I wanted to find out from you, cause I wanted to distinguish here what people had told you or what you had tried to figure out for yourself? And just try to get a good feel for that?A: A lot of it is you know, a lot of it is what people say, comes to piecemeal, it is just like, it is just like when Twombly says we will, he says to you, hey look I giving you this money to do this. Now you are going to be contacted by somebody and this guy is Ok, his name is so and so, he is coming to get this. Now, make this guy up, you know, give this guy identification, do this, do that, or now we want you to, forge, we want you to forge some money. Not American money. Although we did have the plates. Q: I will turn off the recorder. A: No, no, no. Q: I will bet Cuban money though, right?A: Yeah, Cuban money, Chilean money. Q: I meant to ask you, when you all were in, you know, from like Arizona to Dallas, and back, I think do you have anybody you were supposed to contact if you had a big problem or anything like that?A: Not anybody locally no.Q: I mean nationally?A: Oh, well, we always had, we would, we always had like for instance, Twombly. We would call Twombly. Twombly, of course, you know, he owned a bank. I mean, he could, there was no doubt that if you had any kind of problem that money would solve, you couldQ: He could do it.Q: Is he still alive?A: I don't know. He asked me the same thing. Probably is. I will find out as soon as I get back. He had a big ranch in Fullerton and so I have a feeling. I know he, I know he was alive up in the 1980's. And he really wasn't that old, although he had been around a long time, and he had been a vice president, executive vice president of Coca-Cola, he was an executive vice president of Coca-Cola when he was 29 years old. You know in charge of Caribbean operations and so, he probably, chances are, he is probably still alive. But he would only be three years older than I am, you know. So he is probably, a lot of those guys from Bank America area still, those guys from Bank of America who also were alive are still alive, had matter of fact, they, one of their names came up the other day, because they helped form BCCI. Q: Yeah.Q: It all comes around. A: So they had that, so a lot of those guys, I don't know whether they are alive or not, because I never had any reason, I never had any reason to contact them or anything. But, when I go back, I will try to find them. I promised Gary that I would try to get everybody that I can think of, that will be able to tell him something about me. Some of them may say, hey wait a minute. Including, I have to mention, I will get the attorney, the attorneys that you know I had talked to, they represented me at various stages, one of whom is now the commissioner of insurance for the state of California. Uh, the judge who sentenced me, who saw the, who saw and read the CIA file. And as you remember, you, when you talked to Sue, you remember she told you what happened with that, they came down there with two big, thick files, I mean they were thick and let one guy read one sentence out of there, all it said was that Chauncy Holmes, Ernie Siegler, John Armoo, William Dean Ruts, right down the line, are not now and never have been employees of the Central Intelligence Agency. That is all they said. And, of course, that, so they left them read that in, and they wouldn't let the, wouldn't let my attorney cross examine him, or do anything. He just got up, the agents got up and read this into the record. What they do -- (End of Tape)

[kenmurray]

Wim I think Hartmann and Waldon are disinfo guys. Purposely trying to discredit Chauncey's story and on the other hand pushing their mob did it theory. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nRpD6OmFl0

[Michael Calder]

WimI was discussing Thom Hartman with my best friend six months ago. My friend was excited because Lamar Waldron was on Hartman's show. I explained that both Waldron and Hartman are CIA disinformation specialists. I read both books by Waldron and Hartman and there is a way of writing intellectually dishonest work intentionally that gives you away. My friend was aghast because Hartman is the liberal do gooder fighting the good fight against the facists. I smiled and explained that CIA puts their undercover people in such liberal positions so that when the time comes when it is very necessary to spread disinformation to the left, CIA calls on it's agents in place to convince the left that day is night. For instance, the John Kennedy Jr plane crash or 911 attack in New York City, you want to convince the left there is no conspiracy or at least get them looking in the wrong direction. My poor liberal friend. Maybe I should keep some secrets from friends. www.jfkcia.com

[Phil Dragoo]

WimIf Thom Hartmann said it was raining, I would go outside to check.On recommendation of a friend, I read Ultimate Sacrifice. I found it to be similar to driving out of Carson Forest as a mountain rain came up, turning the road into bottomless mire.I would not read its sequel for pay.Was the authors' intent to confuse, diffuse, create false leads in every direction away from the CIA.Or just to put the reader to sleep.It was a super secret plan that everybody and nobody knew about; that Robert Kennedy pushed and covered up.I'm sure covert ops are conducted by teams of Three Stooges with whoopee cushions and sight gags—I read it in Thom Heartburn's book.But I would never, ever, ever read another one.

[Bob]

I thought Thom Hartmann was okay UNTIL he and Lamar Waldron wrote the bogus book Ultimate Sacrifice. I knew then that Thom was a disinformation agent for the CIA. I immediately thought of Operation Mockingbird, the plan where the CIA placed operatives into the media, even so called liberal media types. I think that Mockingbird is still in effect. There are lots of people who are allowed to rightfully attack Dumbya Bu$h in the media via books or articles, but it sure seems like any attacks about Poppy Bu$h are off limits. Case in point...Vincent Bugliosi. There are others that use this modus operandi as well. THINK about it.

[kenmurray]

Here is William Davy's review of that other book "Legacy Of Secrecy":http://www.ctka.net/reviews/waldron_updated.html