WHO GAVE THE ORDER, JFK MUST DIE ???

[Barney]

Robert; If I didnt know otherwise, your post you sound like a Fascist. Now, we dont want to start professing Hitlerian viewpoints here do we?I once watched a tv show, which started off interviewing the alive close friends, and staff members of der Furher, and everyone to a persongave favorable reports on him personally and his policies and personal habits. However from his personal pilot, driver, secretaries, seniorstaffers, they cautioned that at the end of WWII, it was politically incorrect and would prove damaging to Germany, the Fatherland, toespouse pro-Hitlerian policies, attitudes, or personal feelings.

[Robert Wagner]

We ask who gave the order because we have an instinct to punish the guilty. It served us well when we were hunter/gatherers living in shacks, and continues to deter ordinary street crime. Patsies are an attempt to appease that instinct. Using retribution to handle organizational crime is like using a buggy whip to accelerate an automobile. It's the wrong tool for the job, for several reasons:Separation between decision makers and actors, reinforced by obfuscated communication, protects the guilty with plausible denial. We condoned its use in NSC 10/2; now we're frustrated because we can't pierce the veil.The order was given by a committee, not one individual. Group punishment is an ineffective solution because it destroys utility of innocents, the guilty usually escape unscathed and the culture survives in a new setting. The solution is eliminating the organization's culture by taking away its sponsorship, clientele or victims. Punishment must target the organization, not individuals. The CIA culture that murdered JFK was extinguished in the 1990s under Clinton DCIs Woolsey, Deutch and Tenet. The crime couldn't happen the same way today.

[Bob]

Robert, I have to disagree with you about the climate of the CIA today. I think it is even STRONGER than it was in the JFK era. First, I have mentioned many times that the CIA has basically had operatives in the White House since the Poppy Bu$h Presidency. We KNOW Poppy was in the CIA, dating back to the late 50's and the Bay of Pigs and certainly when JFK was assassinated in 1963, as Poppy was part of the conspiracy. Bill Clinton and Poppy were connected at the hip during the CIA drug running out of Mena, Arkansas, when Poppy was VP and Slick Willie was Governor of Arkansas. Dumbya Bu$h, like his father Poppy, used oil companies as fronts for his allegiance to the CIA. Poppy had Zapata, while Dumbya had Harkin and Arbusto. The bin Laden family of Texas actually invested in Arbusto. We know Osama bin Laden was a CIA operative in the 1980's when he was armed and funded by Ronny Reagan and Poppy as he was fighting the Soviets in Afghanistan. That was when al qaeda was created. BY the CIA. Wayne Madsen and others have shown strong evidence about Obama's past that also links him to the CIA. Articles like this one have been posted here about that...http://www.opinion-maker.org/2010/11/ob ... ction/Lets us look at the scorecard of Obama since he has become President...-Gave the Wall Street criminals another $700 BILLION dollars, just like Dumbya Bu$h did-In Iraq there are still 50,000 troops there...protecting the many bases built and the OIL of course , while the war in Afghanistan has been escalated-Went out of his way to protect the CIA from any criminal threats for the use of torture -Passed a healthcare bill, but it had NO single payer or NO public option. In effect, the bill created millions of more customers for private insurance-The Wall Street reform which was passed was a joke, which still allows the Fed to be the fox who runs the hen house.-Has allowed BP to police itself through the worst environmental damage ever done in U.S. history-Shortly before the BP oil spill, Obama endorsed off shore drilling (he has now lifted the moratorium on off shore drilling)-Obama has brought in people like Rahm Emanuel, Bob Gates, Hillary Clinton, Timothy Geithner, Leon Panetta and Ken Salazar into his administrationGates was also the CIA Director under Poppy. Gates was also a player in Iran/Contra, as was Porter Goss, who was also in Operation 40. Goss was also CIA director under Dumbya Bu$h. Bottom line, I don't see the CIA being too worried about Obama, as he is one of their own (unless he pisses them off somehow). That is why they are getting everything they want...as in war... and more war...and all their friends like Wall Street and big oil also are getting more powerful and richer. Obama is allowing the CIA to use torture without any penalties (as did Dumbya), plus he is allowing CIA missions in Pakistan (supposedly an ally). Next mission...a conflict with Iran. In addition, we all know about Operation Mockingbird, as the CIA placed operatives into the MSM years ago. That culture DEFINITELY exists today, as the MSM has never been as bastardized as it is today.I DO agree with you about a committee (albeit a small one) making the order to kill JFK. One or more of the committee members were named Rockefeller as well.

[Phil Dragoo]

Leon Panetta has demonstrated the new CIA openness by releasing the George Joannides files.Oh. Wait.http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/20 ... a_or/James Woolsey was effective by meeting with Clinton for fifteen minutes in two years.John Deutch distinguished himself by compromising thousands of files on his home computer.George Tenet evinced that speaking truth to power characteristic by assuring 43 the WMD business was a slam-dunk.Goss got the message when his chief of staff John Millis called Deutch the worst DCI for CI and Clinton the worst president for CI, then sucked a shotgun in a bathtub of the Breezeway Motel.Hoover heart attack 1972. Johnson heart attack 1973. Nixon effective noon tomorrow 1974.And the Band Plays On.Because Hoover and Johnson and Nixon did NOT “mastermind” the JFK hit.When Company Man Hunt shuffles off this mortal coil fingering LBJ, you know the game is STILL afoot.

[Robert Wagner]

Bob,Many of your points are irrelevant to the CIA. For instance, ObamaCare, the Wall Street bailout, Arbusto and Harken, offshore drilling and Rahm Emanuel. Operation Mockingbird was terminated in 1976 by DCI Poppy. http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKmockingbird.htm Clinton's experience with Mena in the 1980s may have been why he reformed the CIA in the 1990s.Evidence of that reform:Weapons Of Mass Destruction debacle was caused by bureaucratic group think. Old School CIA would have screwed up differently -- by charging in cowboy style, pulling a dirty trick or leaking stories about poison gas purchases. 9/11 was too professional to be a CIA operation. Nine years later, there's not an ounce of evidence as to who did it. Compare and contrast with Oklahoma City, where lots of incriminating evidence was found. I believe 9/11 was outsourced to ISI by the White House. Note that Osama bin Laden hasn't even been charged by the FBI and the alleged perps at Guantanamo don't know anything. Note that in 1999, the four lead hijackers -- Atta (AA11), Shehhi (UA175), Jarrah (UA93) and Hazmi (AA77) -- all went to Karachi.

[Bob]

Robert Wagner wrote:Bob,Many of your points are irrelevant to the CIA. For instance, ObamaCare, the Wall Street bailout, Arbusto and Harken, offshore drilling and Rahm Emanuel. Operation Mockingbird was terminated in 1976 by DCI Poppy. http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKmockingbird.htm Clinton's experience with Mena in the 1980s may have been why he reformed the CIA in the 1990s.Evidence of that reform:Weapons Of Mass Destruction debacle was caused by bureaucratic group think. Old School CIA would have screwed up differently -- by charging in cowboy style, pulling a dirty trick or leaking stories about poison gas purchases. 9/11 was too professional to be a CIA operation. Nine years later, there's not an ounce of evidence as to who did it. Compare and contrast with Oklahoma City, where lots of incriminating evidence was found. I believe 9/11 was outsourced to ISI by the White House. Note that Osama bin Laden hasn't even been charged by the FBI and the alleged perps at Guantanamo don't know anything. Note that in 1999, the four lead hijackers -- Atta (AA11), Shehhi (UA175), Jarrah (UA93) and Hazmi (AA77) -- all went to Karachi.Robert, you raise some very interesting points, and some I agree with, but for the most part I have to disagree with some of your conjecture. First, Wall Street and the CIA have always been bed partners. Just look at the Dulles brothers and their background. In addition, the CIA has and still does massive drug trafficking....just look at Afghanistan now. Speaking of drug trafficking, Mena proved without a DOUBT that Bill Clinton was beholden to the CIA and was a partner of Poppy Bu$h. Going back to Wall Street now, it was the Clinton administration that first saw Congress start to deregulate Wall Street and that of course continued under Dumbya Bu$h. Neither administration did anything to stop that. It is also no wonder that President Obama brought aboard many Clinton-ites, with folks like Hillary in a key position like Secretary of State, Emanuel as Chief of Staff and Leon Panetta as CIA director. Hillary has always been a hawk. She voted for the war in Iraq and pushed for war with Iran when she was running for President. She has also always been very pro-Israel. Emanuel, likewise, has always been a hawk as well, and some believe (like me) he is a Mossad operative. Panetta hasn't changed a thing at CIA headquarters except for more secrecy and more hawkish behavior like the missions into Pakistan. In terms of Operation Mockingbird, maybe the "name" has changed, but the practice is VERY much alive. How many former Generals did one see on CNN, FOX News and MSNBC preaching about the need for war in Afghanistan and Iraq after 9/11. FOX News is a propaganda network. It would make Joseph Goebbels very proud. When the war drums were beating about the possible invasion of Iraq, guess who beat them the loudest? The New York Times and The Washington Post...two so called liberal rags. I agree that ISI was involved in 9/11. But so was the CIA and the Mossad. It was a joint venture.

[John Prewett]

Barney wrote:Forum Members, most of us here think there was a conspiracy to murder President John F Kennedy in 1963or before the election in 1964. Question; who or what group, do you feel gave the final Executive Action Orderwith extreme prejudice to the assassins?? All opinions welcome, even if you happen to think LHO acting alonekilled JFK, for personal reasons. Some factors I believe should be taken into account: Vatican obviously had a stake in the success [or lack thereof] of the presidency of the only avowed RC USA president. No matter what JFK might have done had he not been shot, .... he initially increased the American involvement in S.Vietnam. Summer of 63, Buddhist monks were protesting against the Roman Catholic dominated Diem regime by burning themselves to death in front of Western journalist. [http://www.mosquitonet.com/~prewett/vietnamlist.html] September 11, 1963 New York Times published an article by David Halberstam revealing RC aspects of the war. I'm certain the Vatican did not want the American public to see the war as a war in support of a Roman Catholic dominated regime. The Vatican did not want the war to be tied to a RC president. JFK became worth more as a dead martyr than as a living president. Head of CIA John McCone was a RC Knight of Malta,.... and many high level officials in key positions [government and media] were also avowed subjects of the "holy father" in Rome.

[Barney]

Members; having domestic and foreign intelligence agents inside the White House is nothing new. Going back toPres, Woodrow Wilson, distant kin by marriage, he was paranoid about secrecy issues in the federal govt. offices, andcomplained to his social and govt. intimates, that " not a sparrow's feather could fall to the floor without thosepeople's knowledge and reporting of it," during his two terms in office. I think he was referring mainly to Brit.intel secret agent Gen. House and a few others. After assuring the American public, that he would not committhe USA to war in faroff Europe during WWI, he did just the opposite after complete domination by his cabinetofficials, bankers, govt. dept. heads, the news media in general, but totally opposed by the average US manand women, who feared for their sons going off to war on a foreign continent and for what?? President Wilson suffered a near fatal stroke and wound up a total invalid, and his second wife, Mrs. Edith Bolling Gault(Wilson) my distant relative, ran the US govt. for a short time until his death from mini-strokes. Coincidences maybe, but prob. not: roll:

[Barney]

Forum Members; I would urge you to read the story of Georgia Congressman Larry McDonald, MD who was elected either 4 or 5 times from his congressionaldistrict before his untimely death in the Sea of Japan, on an ill-fated flight from Alaska to Korea for a governmental honorary meeting, which also invitedSen. Jesse Helms and others who took different flights for various reasons. Over 270 passengers and crewmembers died when allegedly McDonald's airlinerstrayed into Russian claimed airspace, and the ground commanders order a shootdown of his civilian aircraft with rockets. This shootdown, which I recall atv interview audio recording of the Russian pilot describing the shootdown very vividly. He stated he was ordered by ground contol to intercept and trail aforeign aircraft entering into Soviet airspace between the command base and Japan. This pilot pulled up to the height of the airliner and notified his groundcommand officer, asking for instructions. He was told if the airliner continued on its current path to fire one or two air to air missles at the plane. He did soand allegedly the airliner crashed and destructed upon impact with no survivors.The US Coast Guard, Japanese Coast Guard, Soviet Coast Guard, all hurried to the scene and found no survivors, or it was reported. Some believe there werenumerous crash survivors and they were arrested and imprisoned all of these years in a gulag. Others, believe the plane quickly descended and make a crashor damaged plane landing on a frozen over lakebed inside the Soviet Union and all or most all the passengers and crew were commandered by the Soviets.The point here thats most poignant, is that prior to leaving the US Capitol on this trip, Congressman McDonald, had been given an entire briefcase full of ultrasecret documents, tape recordings, transcriptions of tapes, under govt. "Operation Pegasus". Operaton Pegasus, was the pre-planning and Ok, given for thesoon-to- be assassination of John F Kennedy. Ultra secret meetings between Alan Dulles, John McCone, VP Johnson, Nelson Rockefeller, and David Rockefellar,and other high and powerful elements inside and outside the govt. were planning the coup de etat that changed our govt. as we know it, and our future forever.Now who made the tapes and transcriptions and dictated memos and documents is left to speculations. The purpose of same was quite clear. Thus, in all likelihood McDonald, died because he knew and has seen too much for his own good.

[Robert Wagner]

Barney wrote:The US Coast Guard, Japanese Coast Guard, Soviet Coast Guard, all hurried to the scene and found no survivors, or it was reported. Some believe there werenumerous crash survivors and they were arrested and imprisoned all of these years in a gulag. Others, believe the plane quickly descended and make a crashor damaged plane landing on a frozen over lakebed inside the Soviet Union and all or most all the passengers and crew were commandered by the Soviets.They didn't find anything because the Russians fooled them into looking in the wrong place, in international waters. The plane crashed in Soviet waters and broke into small pieces. Body parts washed up on Japan a week later. Russians did extensive salvage, finding almost nothing except shoes and black boxes.It wasn't a spy plane. It was 400 miles off course due to pilot errors. He thought the autopilot was on inertial navigation when it was not. He didn't notice flying over land when he should have been over water. Russian fighter pilots did not try to contact the plane on the radio frequency reserved for such encounters nor fire warning tracers, as required by international treaties.The story is this incident prompted Reagan to make GPS available to civilians.Barney wrote:The point here thats most poignant, is that prior to leaving the US Capitol on this trip, Congressman McDonald, had been given an entire briefcase full of ultrasecret documents, tape recordings, transcriptions of tapes, under govt. "Operation Pegasus". Operaton Pegasus, was the pre-planning and Ok, given for thesoon-to- be assassination of John F Kennedy. Ultra secret meetings between Alan Dulles, John McCone, VP Johnson, Nelson Rockefeller, and David Rockefellar,and other high and powerful elements inside and outside the govt. were planning the coup de etat that changed our govt. as we know it, and our future forever.Now who made the tapes and transcriptions and dictated memos and documents is left to speculations. The purpose of same was quite clear. Thus, in all likelihood McDonald, died because he knew and has seen too much for his own good.There is no reason for McDonald take the documents to Korea. There is no claim they were on the plane, just that they were given to McDonald some time before the flight. He had threatened to release some of them after he returned. Trenton Parker said documents covered the period 1976-1982, Carter and Reagan years. Documents contained nothing about the JFK assassination; they were primarily about CIA drug trafficking. Check it out: http://books.google.com/books?id=tftW9A ... &q&f=false