Wim,
I see. When one compares Tosh's statements of 1994 with those of 2004, there's quite a different approach. In 1994 he seems to be very upset and wants to clear the air and get everything he thought and/or feared might have been true of his chest. And in 2004 he's much more reserved. Which is a pity.
Somehow his statements in the Dealey Plaza interview of 1994 seem to be more authentic.
Well, I'll give him a call okay?
Erik
THE ABORT TEAM
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Erik van t Wout
- Posts: 16
- Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2019 8:23 pm
Starting to get the picture now, I think. Found this: review #6 in the contents on the left, page:"Interview reviews" :
"The irony of CIA sending Johnny Rosselli to abort the assassination yet failing in the effort and even assisting in the crime. Did the CIA just want to give the appearance of aborting to distance itself?"
GK
Sounds like what you mentioned above Paul.
Or the rogue element of the CIA knew exactly what they were doing, and the less treacherous majority of the CIA had no idea.
This mobster Roselli must have been quite an interesting fellow, "dancing with the CIA", like he probably did. Meanwhile the bigger part of the CIA was probably not aware that it was being danced with--
(which happened to me in Kindergarten once, by the way, until my buddy made me aware of the situation).
Abort team, it sounds like a big joke to me now.
Which must have been the feeling of Tosh Plumlee back in 1994, when he was stunned to learn (from a growing group of critical researchers belonging to a new generation) that he may have worked for an organisation back in '63 that took part in the killing of JFK. Well, to him it was no joke. He must have felt betrayed like hell.
Weird that Plumlee is now somewhat softer on the CIA, as is clear from his statements of 2004.
It would really help if he would be as adamant about the dubious role of the CIA, and his own unwilling participation (as the pilot of that abort team) in a gigantic crime.
Erik van t Wout
"The irony of CIA sending Johnny Rosselli to abort the assassination yet failing in the effort and even assisting in the crime. Did the CIA just want to give the appearance of aborting to distance itself?"
GK
Sounds like what you mentioned above Paul.
Or the rogue element of the CIA knew exactly what they were doing, and the less treacherous majority of the CIA had no idea.
This mobster Roselli must have been quite an interesting fellow, "dancing with the CIA", like he probably did. Meanwhile the bigger part of the CIA was probably not aware that it was being danced with--
(which happened to me in Kindergarten once, by the way, until my buddy made me aware of the situation).
Abort team, it sounds like a big joke to me now.
Which must have been the feeling of Tosh Plumlee back in 1994, when he was stunned to learn (from a growing group of critical researchers belonging to a new generation) that he may have worked for an organisation back in '63 that took part in the killing of JFK. Well, to him it was no joke. He must have felt betrayed like hell.
Weird that Plumlee is now somewhat softer on the CIA, as is clear from his statements of 2004.
It would really help if he would be as adamant about the dubious role of the CIA, and his own unwilling participation (as the pilot of that abort team) in a gigantic crime.
Erik van t Wout
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Maarten Coumans
- Posts: 6
- Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2019 8:23 pm
To Erik:
I'd like to add that James stated: On the morning of the 22nd to have Johnny picked up from the hotel, driven to Fort Worth, to meet Jack Ruby. At the restaurant, where James is being cover for Johnny, Ruby hands an envelope.
On the way back (near Arlington???), envelope is being opened, contains ID's and a map (discrepancy about this). "They made one change."
Johnny is brought back, Chuck and James drive to Elm, take inventory. And then James is popped the big question. And happens to have, pre-ordered, explosive bullets for his weapon of choise at hand. He had "half a dozen guns in the car."
Toooooooo many IF's, and if I go on, the list is longer.
I believe It's all been designed that way. Including abort-team. If it it is a go, they can function as a back-up. Flown in at the latest moment. On CIA contract, so no record of any movement. May serve as a nice excuse: Sorry, we tried to prevent, but didn't succeeed (MY ASS!!!!). Can't tell that in public. Nor FBI. Wheather they participate, or not. You won't hear anything from them. It is a question of putting a label on it: Abort team. Plummers. Mechanics. Mules. Controllers. Handlers.
Probably if it had been raining longer that day, we would have been investigating his killing in Somewhere-Else-City.
Very nice of you to try to picture this from a director's point of view. Trying to stage this so the audience can fall for that. Kinda hard, to make it all fit.
They are relying on two scripts. One: No-go. everybody walks away. The top is on (rain, or missed hit, security reasons). Motorcade through Main, ignoring Houston and Elm. Money on Next-Time.
Two: Top is off. Everybody is in Dallas. Badges and orders handed out, altered route ambushed on Elm. CIA covers its tracks with a so-called Abort team. This way betting on black and red. They certainly won. They are still allive, and we have no clue whatsoever.
If they had no pre-knowledge, why hiding/altering/destroying documents, evidence and witnesses, essential to investigate. Burry it for another howmany years.
They were in on it. No doubt about it. Lots of money.
Judith Baker's interview about Oswald might interest you, especially the trip to Mexico.
GR. Maarten
I'd like to add that James stated: On the morning of the 22nd to have Johnny picked up from the hotel, driven to Fort Worth, to meet Jack Ruby. At the restaurant, where James is being cover for Johnny, Ruby hands an envelope.
On the way back (near Arlington???), envelope is being opened, contains ID's and a map (discrepancy about this). "They made one change."
Johnny is brought back, Chuck and James drive to Elm, take inventory. And then James is popped the big question. And happens to have, pre-ordered, explosive bullets for his weapon of choise at hand. He had "half a dozen guns in the car."
Toooooooo many IF's, and if I go on, the list is longer.
I believe It's all been designed that way. Including abort-team. If it it is a go, they can function as a back-up. Flown in at the latest moment. On CIA contract, so no record of any movement. May serve as a nice excuse: Sorry, we tried to prevent, but didn't succeeed (MY ASS!!!!). Can't tell that in public. Nor FBI. Wheather they participate, or not. You won't hear anything from them. It is a question of putting a label on it: Abort team. Plummers. Mechanics. Mules. Controllers. Handlers.
Probably if it had been raining longer that day, we would have been investigating his killing in Somewhere-Else-City.
Very nice of you to try to picture this from a director's point of view. Trying to stage this so the audience can fall for that. Kinda hard, to make it all fit.
They are relying on two scripts. One: No-go. everybody walks away. The top is on (rain, or missed hit, security reasons). Motorcade through Main, ignoring Houston and Elm. Money on Next-Time.
Two: Top is off. Everybody is in Dallas. Badges and orders handed out, altered route ambushed on Elm. CIA covers its tracks with a so-called Abort team. This way betting on black and red. They certainly won. They are still allive, and we have no clue whatsoever.
If they had no pre-knowledge, why hiding/altering/destroying documents, evidence and witnesses, essential to investigate. Burry it for another howmany years.
They were in on it. No doubt about it. Lots of money.
Judith Baker's interview about Oswald might interest you, especially the trip to Mexico.
GR. Maarten
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tom jeffers
- Posts: 57
- Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2019 8:23 pm
To eric on Roselli
I think that Roselli was told by someone to call it off however when he met with Nicoletti and found out he was going ahead with it he just went along. Those guys have there own moral code. In our eyes if we were told to abort, we would try to stop the killing. In Roselli's eyes as long as he did not pull the trigger, then he did not take part in it. Later he could say to whomever that he did abort and had nothing to do with it. That was their mentality. In our world it is called an accessory to murder but in his world if he did not pull the trigger then he did not participate. They live in a very black and white world where there are no grey areas.
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Erik van t Wout
- Posts: 16
- Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2019 8:23 pm
Re: To eric on Roselli
Maarten wrote:
I believe It's all been designed that way. Including abort-team. If it it is a go, they can function as a back-up. Flown in at the latest moment."Tosh" Plumlee wouldn't like this version as of recently.tom jeffers wrote:I think that Roselli was told by someone to call it off however when he met with Nicoletti and found out he was going ahead with it he just went along.
"Tosh" likes this one better.
Anyway, Maarten and Tom obviously disagree on this issue.
Erik van t Wout
I believe It's all been designed that way. Including abort-team. If it it is a go, they can function as a back-up. Flown in at the latest moment."Tosh" Plumlee wouldn't like this version as of recently.tom jeffers wrote:I think that Roselli was told by someone to call it off however when he met with Nicoletti and found out he was going ahead with it he just went along.
"Tosh" likes this one better.
Anyway, Maarten and Tom obviously disagree on this issue.
Erik van t Wout
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Maarten Coumans
- Posts: 6
- Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2019 8:23 pm
Re: To eric on Roselli
Erik van t Wout wrote:"Tosh" Plumlee wouldn't like this version as of recently.
It is not personal against "Tosh". I'm very happy he came forward to tell his story. Remember: they kicked his ass for being there in the area, during the debriefing. Need to know basis stuff.
I think it is a bit naive to fly in a team. Calling it an abort team. To "out of sync the operation" ??????????
Make sure one shooter shoots not synchronous with the other. Slight delay...........????????? Create an impression there was a small army of guns, more likely. Makes no sense.
They had a very good chance early 22nd by saying hood is on, or just putting it on. The CIA could have warned the president. Strange corner on Elm. No extra security (Well not for Kennedy at least). Ignore Houston and Elm in the route at all. None of it all.
How come Johnny got an envelope from Ruby in Fort Worth, that morning containing the final instructions and badges/ID's. They were calling it off!!!???? Odd. Looking glass idea more likely. Black is white, and white is black.
All was pre-arranged, in my point of view.
I can't picture for the life of me, the mob telling the CIA what to do. More like the other way around.
More than that, that would mean that by approx 11.00 hrs Dallas Time the CIA was aware of the out of hand plans, and decided to do .......??????...... fly in extra assassins the previous day. I cannot picture that.
Again, I've got nothing against "Tosh". Wish him Well.
Gr, Maarten.
It is not personal against "Tosh". I'm very happy he came forward to tell his story. Remember: they kicked his ass for being there in the area, during the debriefing. Need to know basis stuff.
I think it is a bit naive to fly in a team. Calling it an abort team. To "out of sync the operation" ??????????
Make sure one shooter shoots not synchronous with the other. Slight delay...........????????? Create an impression there was a small army of guns, more likely. Makes no sense.
They had a very good chance early 22nd by saying hood is on, or just putting it on. The CIA could have warned the president. Strange corner on Elm. No extra security (Well not for Kennedy at least). Ignore Houston and Elm in the route at all. None of it all.
How come Johnny got an envelope from Ruby in Fort Worth, that morning containing the final instructions and badges/ID's. They were calling it off!!!???? Odd. Looking glass idea more likely. Black is white, and white is black.
All was pre-arranged, in my point of view.
I can't picture for the life of me, the mob telling the CIA what to do. More like the other way around.
More than that, that would mean that by approx 11.00 hrs Dallas Time the CIA was aware of the out of hand plans, and decided to do .......??????...... fly in extra assassins the previous day. I cannot picture that.
Again, I've got nothing against "Tosh". Wish him Well.
Gr, Maarten.
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Erik van t Wout
- Posts: 16
- Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2019 8:23 pm
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Maarten Coumans
- Posts: 6
- Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2019 8:23 pm
I believe you stated being a director for TV, right?
Can you come up for yourself with a swallowable scenario to visualise these things, I can't.
It is easier perhaps, for my generation to look back etc., and point a finger. And people like Tosh and Files are easy targets. Lynching (democraticly of course) them won't help. In fact, locks everything up again.
But their info can help puzzle pieces together that normally would remain unsolved. Leaving emotions as much as possible out of it, and try to concentrate on facts. He gives a glimps on what happens on the other side of the news.
About the legacy by Nicoletti, now owned by James. "They could solve a lot cases." . They could, but would they? Perhaps more profitable to have someone by the balls, Hoover style.
James didn't like the Feds much.
He has got a different angle than James, or LHO. Yet from the same source.
Means they tell all kinds of stories (propaganda, lies) to get Kennedy killed. Standard procedure.
Even people who actually suported Kennedy, may unwittingly have contributed in his execution (I have no other word for it).
I think the story of Baker (Oswald's secret girlfriend) on Mexico, to kill Castro tells a lot. Oswald hoped by killing Castro he could save Kennedy.
Afterwards, makes no sense, but CIA are expert pushers and shuvers. We are still told Oswald did it, yet there is no proof. Only he worked at the TSBD. Damn, more people did. No powderburns, no witnesses, and a hilarious Magic-Bullet-theory.(I think I've got some on that too, if you are interested). And a Warren-Commission to gather all evidence, and witnesses to fit their story. Hoping no-one would read it. Thanks Mr. Garrisson, and all the others who kept on digging. In spite the danger.
Gr. Maarten
Can you come up for yourself with a swallowable scenario to visualise these things, I can't.
It is easier perhaps, for my generation to look back etc., and point a finger. And people like Tosh and Files are easy targets. Lynching (democraticly of course) them won't help. In fact, locks everything up again.
But their info can help puzzle pieces together that normally would remain unsolved. Leaving emotions as much as possible out of it, and try to concentrate on facts. He gives a glimps on what happens on the other side of the news.
About the legacy by Nicoletti, now owned by James. "They could solve a lot cases." . They could, but would they? Perhaps more profitable to have someone by the balls, Hoover style.
James didn't like the Feds much.
He has got a different angle than James, or LHO. Yet from the same source.
Means they tell all kinds of stories (propaganda, lies) to get Kennedy killed. Standard procedure.
Even people who actually suported Kennedy, may unwittingly have contributed in his execution (I have no other word for it).
I think the story of Baker (Oswald's secret girlfriend) on Mexico, to kill Castro tells a lot. Oswald hoped by killing Castro he could save Kennedy.
Afterwards, makes no sense, but CIA are expert pushers and shuvers. We are still told Oswald did it, yet there is no proof. Only he worked at the TSBD. Damn, more people did. No powderburns, no witnesses, and a hilarious Magic-Bullet-theory.(I think I've got some on that too, if you are interested). And a Warren-Commission to gather all evidence, and witnesses to fit their story. Hoping no-one would read it. Thanks Mr. Garrisson, and all the others who kept on digging. In spite the danger.
Gr. Maarten
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Dave Cannon
- Posts: 12
- Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2019 8:23 pm
Dear Maarten Coumans,
The book Ultimate Sacrifice seems to have credible information reagrding the CIA, Rosselli and Oswald's role in the assassination of JFK.
The information may explain Tosh Plumlee's actions on 11/22.
Here is my brief explanation of what I have learned so far and I have only read half of the book.
The book goes through great lengths to explain that the Mafia (Trafficante, Marcello, Giancana) used information regarding a plan code named AMWORLD (Coup on Castro) that was supposed to start in December of 63 and that was in last formative stages by November 63.
The CIA probably new of the plan by the mafia to kill JFK, but did not plan it. The CIA then sent Rosselli CIA/MAFIA operative and an abort team to stop the Mafia on 11/22 but were unable to because the hit came from the top Mob bosses. Oswald was caught in the middle because he was trying to infiltrate Cuba for Bobby Kennedy's AMWORLD plan.
In addition, I have found nothing that goes against what James Files has said.
Dave Cannon
The book Ultimate Sacrifice seems to have credible information reagrding the CIA, Rosselli and Oswald's role in the assassination of JFK.
The information may explain Tosh Plumlee's actions on 11/22.
Here is my brief explanation of what I have learned so far and I have only read half of the book.
The book goes through great lengths to explain that the Mafia (Trafficante, Marcello, Giancana) used information regarding a plan code named AMWORLD (Coup on Castro) that was supposed to start in December of 63 and that was in last formative stages by November 63.
The CIA probably new of the plan by the mafia to kill JFK, but did not plan it. The CIA then sent Rosselli CIA/MAFIA operative and an abort team to stop the Mafia on 11/22 but were unable to because the hit came from the top Mob bosses. Oswald was caught in the middle because he was trying to infiltrate Cuba for Bobby Kennedy's AMWORLD plan.
In addition, I have found nothing that goes against what James Files has said.
Dave Cannon
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Erik van t Wout
- Posts: 16
- Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2019 8:23 pm
Maarten wrote:
I believe you stated being a director for TV, right? Can you come up for yourself with a swallowable scenario to visualise these things, I can't. Nope. Not yet.Dave wrote:The CIA probably new of the plan by the mafia to kill JFK, but did not plan it. The CIA then sent Rosselli CIA/MAFIA operative and an abort team to stop the Mafia on 11/22 but were unable to because the hit came from the top Mob bosses.
Somehow I get the feeling that whoever sent Roselli on this abort-trip didn´t really want him to succeed.
It hard for me to believe that (part of) the CIA was not involved in (some of) the planning.
Oswald was CIA, wasn't he. David Atlee Philips was. Also De Mohrenschild. So what were they doing with Oswald, if not planning to put him up as a patsy for the killing of JFK?
Erik van t Wout
I believe you stated being a director for TV, right? Can you come up for yourself with a swallowable scenario to visualise these things, I can't. Nope. Not yet.Dave wrote:The CIA probably new of the plan by the mafia to kill JFK, but did not plan it. The CIA then sent Rosselli CIA/MAFIA operative and an abort team to stop the Mafia on 11/22 but were unable to because the hit came from the top Mob bosses.
Somehow I get the feeling that whoever sent Roselli on this abort-trip didn´t really want him to succeed.
It hard for me to believe that (part of) the CIA was not involved in (some of) the planning.
Oswald was CIA, wasn't he. David Atlee Philips was. Also De Mohrenschild. So what were they doing with Oswald, if not planning to put him up as a patsy for the killing of JFK?
Erik van t Wout