JFK RFK MLK Assassination Forum

SeamusCoogan wrote:Oh yeah theres also heaps n heaps of Prouty stuff online as well. David Ratcliffe has loads of stuff.http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/ST/ST.htmlThis is his first book which was removed from book shelves in 1973.Prouty by the way did not believe Files story.That may be true Seamus...but look at this, and note the Fletcher Prouty section of Jim Marrs' take on Jimmy Files in blue...TO JAMES FILES CONFESSION CRITICS: ANSWER ME THISby JIM MARRSFirst off let me set the record straight. I have not -- nor am I now --taking any particular position on the truthfulness of the James E. Filesconfession. I was not on the Grassy Knoll on November 22, 1963, so I cannotstate with any 100 percent assurance what really happened.All I have ever said on this matter is that I am aware of much more to thisstory than simply a talking-head videotaped confession and that I feel itdeserves more serious attention than it has received in the past. Those whohave been so quick to dismiss Files as a hoax do not know the full detailsof this issue. Others have personal problems with one or more of theresearchers who have brought the Files story public. Let's not toss out themessage just because we don't like the messenger. Never forget that thewhole Files story came about due to a tip from an FBI agent, not from merespeculation by some researcher.Despite what I feel to be an honest and open-minded attitude toward theFiles story on my part, I, along with anyone else who dares to admitinterest in this issue, have suffered much abuse on the Internet and otherplaces from some critics who, after superficial or no research, branded theFiles story a hoax.Without making a long, involved story even longer, I would simply like theanswers to the following three simple questions regarding James Files:HOW DID JAMES FILES KNOW THAT HUMAN TEETH IMPRESSIONS WOULD BE FOUND ON A.222-CALIBER SHELL CASING FOUND ON THE GRASSY KNOLL IN 1987?It is a fact that John C. Rademacher of Granbury, Texas, discovered a.222-caliber shell casing on the north Grassy Knoll in Dallas' Dealey Plazain 1987. He brought the casing to my class at the University of Texas atArlington in 1990. I recall asking him about strange marks on the casingbecause at the time I was very interested in the sabot or husk bullet issue.Rademacher said the mark was on the casing when he found it but that he hadno idea what it was.On May 3, 1993, researcher Bob Vernon along with TV executive Barry Adelmanfirst interviewed James E. Files in prison. Files claims to have used anunusual and expensive single-shot match pistol, a .222-caliber RemingtonXP-100 "Fireball", to shoot President Kennedy from behind the wooden picketfence on top of the Grassy Knoll. Toward the end of the interview, Filescasually mentioned that he had left the .222-caliber shell casing behind onthe Grassy Knoll and that if anyone was to find it they would know it washis. When asked how it could be identified, Files said he had bitten down onthe empty shell casing and left it behind on a cross piece of the woodenpicket fence. "It will have my teeth marks on it," he explained.Reflecting on this information, Vernon recalled seeing something about a manfinding a shell casing on the Grassy Knoll in the files of the late Texasresearcher Joe West. After locating the story in West's material, Vernonalong with Mrs. Joe West visited Rademacher in July, 1993, and first saw theshell casing with the markings on it. After about two months ofcorrespondence, Vernon finally obtained the shell casing in late September,1993, and sent it for study by Dr. Paul Stimson of the University of Texasat Houston, a member of the American Boards of Oral Pathology and ForensicOdontology. About Oct. 4, 1993, following days of microscopic examination,Dr. Stimson reported, "Opinion: The indentations are oriented on the shellcasing in a pattern that would be consistent with the maxillary rightcentral incisor making the larger mark and the two smaller marks would beconsistent with the lower right central and lateral incisors. It is myopinion that the marks are consistent with having been made by humanindentation."It is highly unlikely that this whole story could be a gigantic hoaxinvolving such diverse people as Dr. Stimson, Vernon, Joe West (who diedbefore ever learning of the casing connection between Rademacher and Files)and his wife, Adelman, Files, myself and others over a period of more thansix years.Having rejected the complicated hoax theory and considering that apparentlyno one in the world knew of the casing/teeth issue prior to Dr. Stimson'sfindings in October, 1993, I am left with the question --- If he had nofirst-hand knowledge, how did James Files know that human teeth impressionswould be found on a .222-caliber shell casing discovered on the Grassy Knollin 1987?HOW DID FILES FIND OUT ABOUT THE "WHITE STAR" TEAMS IN LAOS UNLESS HE WAS AMEMBER?During interviews with James E. Files, he told of his military record whichincluded a stint with the 82nd Airborne Division concerning covertoperations in Laos in 1959. He said he was supposedly out of the militarybut was actually being paid by the U.S. Army and specifically mentionedbeing part of the "White Star" teams to train Laotian Army regulars. Being aVietnam-era veteran myself and a lay historian, I was surprised that I hadnever heard of the "White Star" teams. In fact, I chalked this term up as apoint against Files since no one I knew had ever heard of such teams. Thenin the summer of 1996, in a telephone conversation with Col. FletcherProuty, I happened to mention that Files claimed to have trained LaotianArmy troops in 1959. "Oh, that was my operation," said Prouty. "They werecalled the White Star teams." Prouty explained that members of the "WhiteStar" teams were "sheep-dipped," He explained this process as "an intricateArmy-devised process by which a man who is in the service as a full careersoldier or officer agrees to go through all the legal and official motionsof resigning from the service. Then, rather than actually being released,his records are pulled from the Army personnel files and transferred to aspecial Army intelligence file. (The Secret Team: pp. 172-173)" This isexactly the process mentioned by Files and, obviously, could go far inexplaining some of the frustrations encountered in trying to verify hismilitary record. Prouty said the "White Star" teams were composed of"sheep-dipped" officers and men who were hired by a private company createdby the CIA and sent to Laos to train troops. Prouty's statements force thequestion --- If Files is a phony and never in the military (as some criticshave asserted), how did he know the correct term "White Star" teams and thecircumstances of their involvement in Laos.unless he was part of it?WHERE DID FILES LEARN OF AN "ABORT TEAM" IF NOT FROM JOHNNY ROSELLI?According to the Files confession, the JFK assassination was carried out byChicago mob hit man, Charles "Chuckie" Nicoletti on orders from boss SamGiancana. ".(Richard) Cain and Nicoletti were actual gunmen for the hit."wrote Giancana's brother Chuck in his 1992 book Double Cross (pp. 334-335).Files said the hit team originally was to be Nicoletti and mobster JohnnyRoselli. Files himself was only to have transported weapons to Dallas andacted as driver. But, according to Files, Roselli arrived in Dallas early onthe morning of November 22, 1963, by means of a "military flight". Rosellisaid the CIA had sent an "abort team" to Dallas to stop the assassinationand he declined to participate saying they would all be killed. Undaunted byRoselli's fears, Nicoletti decided to move ahead with the carefully-laidplans and so asked Files --- a man who had been his driver and confederatein several other jobs --- to back him up. Many critics have questioned whyFiles at such a young age and not being a "made" Mafia man would have beenincluded on something as important as the JFK assassination. This is a verygood question but it appears answered in this account of Files' last-minutesubstitution after Roselli suddenly backed out, fearful of being killed byan "abort team".Files' use of the term "abort team" was only the second time in my career Ihad heard that term. The first involved a "black ops" military pilot whoalso mentioned an "abort team' --- and in connection with the JFKassassination!!William Robert "Tosh" Plumlee claimed to have been involved in secretgovernment skullduggery beginning before the Bay of Pigs invasion andlasting through the Iran-Contra scandal. I have reams of FBI and DEA reportson Plumlee and they state he was claiming to have knowledge of the JFKassassination as far back as the 1970s. In addition to his numerousgovernment files, Plumlee was called for secret testimony during theIran-Contra hearings. He obviously is a credible source.In the late 1980s, Tosh took me on a guided tour of Dallas and presented anincredible story of how he piloted a plane from Florida to New Orleans onNovember 21, 1963. In New Orleans, he picked up a team of men, along withsome small cases, and flew them to Dallas, arriving early on Nov. 22.Originally slated to land at Red Bird Airport, he was diverted to GarlandAirport due to early morning rain and overcast. Here the team disembarked.This group was largely unknown to Tosh except for one man whom he hadpiloted before. He only knew this man as "Colonel John Roselli". Tosh alsosaid he was told that the group were an "abort team" sent to Dallas to stopan assassination attempt on President Kennedy. Tosh's account of thisflight, his observations in Dealey Plaza and his planned return trip to meetDavid Ferrie in Houston make for a fascinating tale, one that has never beendisproved.Tosh says he flew Roselli into Dallas on a military plane and Roselli tellsFiles he arrived on a military flight. Tosh said the flight was to bring inan "abort team" and Roselli bows out of his part in the assassinationconfessing fear of an "abort team". Since Tosh and Files are the only twopeople I have ever heard mention an "abort team" and since by all researchTosh and Files never met, how could Files have known about an "abort team"unless his story of Roselli's statements are true?Now I am the first to admit that there are problems with the Filesconfession, mostly due to the lack of substantiating documentation. Ofcourse, men like Files don't live long or prosper with the Chicago mob orCIA by leaving behind a well-managed paper trail. In my study of this issue,I have found many small things which seem to corroborate his story. Three ofthese are mentioned above.There remains much more research to be done on the Files. In the meantime,if someone will simply give me a credible and well-supported answer to theabove three questions, I might consider joining the chorus of nay-sayers inthe James Files confession.-Jim Marrs

Bob wrote:SeamusCoogan wrote:Oh yeah theres also heaps n heaps of Prouty stuff online as well. David Ratcliffe has loads of stuff.http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/ST/ST.htmlThis is his first book which was removed from book shelves in 1973.Prouty by the way did not believe Files story.That may be true Seamus...but look at this, and note the Fletcher Prouty section of Jim Marrs' take on Jimmy Files in blue...TO JAMES FILES CONFESSION CRITICS: ANSWER ME THISby JIM MARRSFirst off let me set the record straight. I have not -- nor am I now --taking any particular position on the truthfulness of the James E. Filesconfession. I was not on the Grassy Knoll on November 22, 1963, so I cannotstate with any 100 percent assurance what really happened.All I have ever said on this matter is that I am aware of much more to thisstory than simply a talking-head videotaped confession and that I feel itdeserves more serious attention than it has received in the past. Those whohave been so quick to dismiss Files as a hoax do not know the full detailsof this issue. Others have personal problems with one or more of theresearchers who have brought the Files story public. Let's not toss out themessage just because we don't like the messenger. Never forget that thewhole Files story came about due to a tip from an FBI agent, not from merespeculation by some researcher.Despite what I feel to be an honest and open-minded attitude toward theFiles story on my part, I, along with anyone else who dares to admitinterest in this issue, have suffered much abuse on the Internet and otherplaces from some critics who, after superficial or no research, branded theFiles story a hoax.Without making a long, involved story even longer, I would simply like theanswers to the following three simple questions regarding James Files:HOW DID JAMES FILES KNOW THAT HUMAN TEETH IMPRESSIONS WOULD BE FOUND ON A.222-CALIBER SHELL CASING FOUND ON THE GRASSY KNOLL IN 1987?It is a fact that John C. Rademacher of Granbury, Texas, discovered a.222-caliber shell casing on the north Grassy Knoll in Dallas' Dealey Plazain 1987. He brought the casing to my class at the University of Texas atArlington in 1990. I recall asking him about strange marks on the casingbecause at the time I was very interested in the sabot or husk bullet issue.Rademacher said the mark was on the casing when he found it but that he hadno idea what it was.On May 3, 1993, researcher Bob Vernon along with TV executive Barry Adelmanfirst interviewed James E. Files in prison. Files claims to have used anunusual and expensive single-shot match pistol, a .222-caliber RemingtonXP-100 "Fireball", to shoot President Kennedy from behind the wooden picketfence on top of the Grassy Knoll. Toward the end of the interview, Filescasually mentioned that he had left the .222-caliber shell casing behind onthe Grassy Knoll and that if anyone was to find it they would know it washis. When asked how it could be identified, Files said he had bitten down onthe empty shell casing and left it behind on a cross piece of the woodenpicket fence. "It will have my teeth marks on it," he explained.Reflecting on this information, Vernon recalled seeing something about a manfinding a shell casing on the Grassy Knoll in the files of the late Texasresearcher Joe West. After locating the story in West's material, Vernonalong with Mrs. Joe West visited Rademacher in July, 1993, and first saw theshell casing with the markings on it. After about two months ofcorrespondence, Vernon finally obtained the shell casing in late September,1993, and sent it for study by Dr. Paul Stimson of the University of Texasat Houston, a member of the American Boards of Oral Pathology and ForensicOdontology. About Oct. 4, 1993, following days of microscopic examination,Dr. Stimson reported, "Opinion: The indentations are oriented on the shellcasing in a pattern that would be consistent with the maxillary rightcentral incisor making the larger mark and the two smaller marks would beconsistent with the lower right central and lateral incisors. It is myopinion that the marks are consistent with having been made by humanindentation."It is highly unlikely that this whole story could be a gigantic hoaxinvolving such diverse people as Dr. Stimson, Vernon, Joe West (who diedbefore ever learning of the casing connection between Rademacher and Files)and his wife, Adelman, Files, myself and others over a period of more thansix years.Having rejected the complicated hoax theory and considering that apparentlyno one in the world knew of the casing/teeth issue prior to Dr. Stimson'sfindings in October, 1993, I am left with the question --- If he had nofirst-hand knowledge, how did James Files know that human teeth impressionswould be found on a .222-caliber shell casing discovered on the Grassy Knollin 1987?HOW DID FILES FIND OUT ABOUT THE "WHITE STAR" TEAMS IN LAOS UNLESS HE WAS AMEMBER?During interviews with James E. Files, he told of his military record whichincluded a stint with the 82nd Airborne Division concerning covertoperations in Laos in 1959. He said he was supposedly out of the militarybut was actually being paid by the U.S. Army and specifically mentionedbeing part of the "White Star" teams to train Laotian Army regulars. Being aVietnam-era veteran myself and a lay historian, I was surprised that I hadnever heard of the "White Star" teams. In fact, I chalked this term up as apoint against Files since no one I knew had ever heard of such teams. Thenin the summer of 1996, in a telephone conversation with Col. FletcherProuty, I happened to mention that Files claimed to have trained LaotianArmy troops in 1959. "Oh, that was my operation," said Prouty. "They werecalled the White Star teams." Prouty explained that members of the "WhiteStar" teams were "sheep-dipped," He explained this process as "an intricateArmy-devised process by which a man who is in the service as a full careersoldier or officer agrees to go through all the legal and official motionsof resigning from the service. Then, rather than actually being released,his records are pulled from the Army personnel files and transferred to aspecial Army intelligence file. (The Secret Team: pp. 172-173)" This isexactly the process mentioned by Files and, obviously, could go far inexplaining some of the frustrations encountered in trying to verify hismilitary record. Prouty said the "White Star" teams were composed of"sheep-dipped" officers and men who were hired by a private company createdby the CIA and sent to Laos to train troops. Prouty's statements force thequestion --- If Files is a phony and never in the military (as some criticshave asserted), how did he know the correct term "White Star" teams and thecircumstances of their involvement in Laos.unless he was part of it?WHERE DID FILES LEARN OF AN "ABORT TEAM" IF NOT FROM JOHNNY ROSELLI?According to the Files confession, the JFK assassination was carried out byChicago mob hit man, Charles "Chuckie" Nicoletti on orders from boss SamGiancana. ".(Richard) Cain and Nicoletti were actual gunmen for the hit."wrote Giancana's brother Chuck in his 1992 book Double Cross (pp. 334-335).Files said the hit team originally was to be Nicoletti and mobster JohnnyRoselli. Files himself was only to have transported weapons to Dallas andacted as driver. But, according to Files, Roselli arrived in Dallas early onthe morning of November 22, 1963, by means of a "military flight". Rosellisaid the CIA had sent an "abort team" to Dallas to stop the assassinationand he declined to participate saying they would all be killed. Undaunted byRoselli's fears, Nicoletti decided to move ahead with the carefully-laidplans and so asked Files --- a man who had been his driver and confederatein several other jobs --- to back him up. Many critics have questioned whyFiles at such a young age and not being a "made" Mafia man would have beenincluded on something as important as the JFK assassination. This is a verygood question but it appears answered in this account of Files' last-minutesubstitution after Roselli suddenly backed out, fearful of being killed byan "abort team".Files' use of the term "abort team" was only the second time in my career Ihad heard that term. The first involved a "black ops" military pilot whoalso mentioned an "abort team' --- and in connection with the JFKassassination!!William Robert "Tosh" Plumlee claimed to have been involved in secretgovernment skullduggery beginning before the Bay of Pigs invasion andlasting through the Iran-Contra scandal. I have reams of FBI and DEA reportson Plumlee and they state he was claiming to have knowledge of the JFKassassination as far back as the 1970s. In addition to his numerousgovernment files, Plumlee was called for secret testimony during theIran-Contra hearings. He obviously is a credible source.In the late 1980s, Tosh took me on a guided tour of Dallas and presented anincredible story of how he piloted a plane from Florida to New Orleans onNovember 21, 1963. In New Orleans, he picked up a team of men, along withsome small cases, and flew them to Dallas, arriving early on Nov. 22.Originally slated to land at Red Bird Airport, he was diverted to GarlandAirport due to early morning rain and overcast. Here the team disembarked.This group was largely unknown to Tosh except for one man whom he hadpiloted before. He only knew this man as "Colonel John Roselli". Tosh alsosaid he was told that the group were an "abort team" sent to Dallas to stopan assassination attempt on President Kennedy. Tosh's account of thisflight, his observations in Dealey Plaza and his planned return trip to meetDavid Ferrie in Houston make for a fascinating tale, one that has never beendisproved.Tosh says he flew Roselli into Dallas on a military plane and Roselli tellsFiles he arrived on a military flight. Tosh said the flight was to bring inan "abort team" and Roselli bows out of his part in the assassinationconfessing fear of an "abort team". Since Tosh and Files are the only twopeople I have ever heard mention an "abort team" and since by all researchTosh and Files never met, how could Files have known about an "abort team"unless his story of Roselli's statements are true?Now I am the first to admit that there are problems with the Filesconfession, mostly due to the lack of substantiating documentation. Ofcourse, men like Files don't live long or prosper with the Chicago mob orCIA by leaving behind a well-managed paper trail. In my study of this issue,I have found many small things which seem to corroborate his story. Three ofthese are mentioned above.There remains much more research to be done on the Files. In the meantime,if someone will simply give me a credible and well-supported answer to theabove three questions, I might consider joining the chorus of nay-sayers inthe James Files confession.-Jim Marrs Thats just blending Bob. Its no big deal. So Prouty, Marrs and Files share the same viewpoints? It still doesnt change the fact that Prouty didn't buy the Files story. As I've said I'm utterly indifferent to any shooter on the gnoll it may have been Files, it may not have been. There was more than enough evidence prior to FIles and plenty more after that makes him (were he involved) nothing but a little man under orders.You see Prouty has made some stark and unromantic comments about the guys who shot Kennedy. I take his view that they are or were unimportant in the scheme of things. Thus Files story is as good a candidate as any body else being there that day. As soon as I heard Prouty say that, I was like thats good enough for me and that was about 17 years ago when I started out. Thats not to to say that Files life makes for one hell of a ripping yarn and that he doesnt warrant study on your behalfs. I respect your views. Furthermore, regardless of how right ot wrong Files story turns out to be, generally speaking, if he led you Bob to pretty much a similar view of the overall assassination that I share well thats all well and good.Thus all I am saying here is that "Prouty did not believe the Files story". It is not a statement of intent on my behalf. Its more a statement of my concern.The reason I say this is that there was a post awhile back from a newb asking if Prouty would have personally known Files during his service. I replied in the negative. Now what you have put down above Bob is the kind of thing that can get taken out of context extremely freaking quickly, trust me. If unanswered bullshit arises and then some poor guy gets it in his head that Files knew Prouty personally or what ever then we have a problem. God Prouty has been taken out of context so Badly in so many ways. I should know I've been studying the dude for close to four years yeah thats how long the Christchurch Star has taken me. Part 1 of my research can be seen on Greg Parkers site. Part 2 is coming out soon.

I hear what you are saying Seamus, and I certainly respect your work and your opinion. I also have an immense amount of respect for Fletcher Prouty. But like anyone in the research community, I don't agree with EVERYTHING that they have written or said. That goes for Jim Marrs, Robert Groden, Jack White, Jim DiEugenio, Wim...anyone...although I agree with probably 90% of what they have said or written. Mr. Prouty once said that he didn't feel that LBJ was in on the conspiracy based on conversations he heard from LBJ. I vehemently disagree. Now I don't think LBJ was in the conspiracy to the degree of Allen Dulles, David Phillips or Edward Lansdale, but LBJ KNEW a hit was coming and he knew that he and his buddy J. Edgar Hoover would have to cover up this murder. LBJ DEFINITELY had the motive. He was looking at being dropped from the 1964 Presidential ticket and possible prison time due to his criminal activity. Back to Prouty now, I think he is spot on in almost every other thing he interpreted regarding the assassination. Whether Prouty believed Files or not is irrelevent in the big scheme of things as you noted. The main thing is to continue our search for the truth. Slowly, but surely, we will accomplish that. Vince Bugliosi having clear connections to David Phillips is yet another piece of the puzzle for instance.

Bob wrote:I hear what you are saying Seamus, and I certainly respect your work and your opinion. I also have an immense amount of respect for Fletcher Prouty. But like anyone in the research community, I don't agree with EVERYTHING that they have written or said. That goes for Jim Marrs, Robert Groden, Jack White, Jim DiEugenio, Wim...anyone...although I agree with probably 90% of what they have said or written. Mr. Prouty once said that he didn't feel that LBJ was in on the conspiracy based on conversations he heard from LBJ. I vehemently disagree. Now I don't think LBJ was in the conspiracy to the degree of Allen Dulles, David Phillips or Edward Lansdale, but LBJ KNEW a hit was coming and he knew that he and his buddy J. Edgar Hoover would have to cover up this murder. LBJ DEFINITELY had the motive. He was looking at being dropped from the 1964 Presidential ticket and possible prison time due to his criminal activity. Back to Prouty now, I think he is spot on in almost every other thing he interpreted regarding the assassination. Whether Prouty believed Files or not is irrelevent in the big scheme of things as you noted. The main thing is to continue our search for the truth. Slowly, but surely, we will accomplish that. Vince Bugliosi having clear connections to David Phillips is yet another piece of the puzzle for instance.I agree totally Bob that Johnson knew something was in the wind Bob old bean, but the evidence unearthed by shit burgers like Zirbel and Barr McClellan just don't rub. The evidence however seriously swings Prouty's way as far as Johnson is concerned. In fact from what I have seen and read Prouty clearly has Johnson benefitting within the framework of the conspiracy of silence afterwards. Donald Gibsons work is frightening about how the committee was established and how resistant Johnson was. Sheesh, take a look at Rostow Alsop and the gang and the Eastern Establishment calling on Johnson. Johnson appears to have been complicit in the cover up not the planning as was Hoover. Dulles and the others had these two by the nuts. I think you Ken and Chris Messner allude to it in some other post/s and I agree but since the system is so badly screwed every bodies in on it even if they didn't want in or know about in the first place. Thats the problem here. As for Phillips and Bugliosi. Definitely interesting. like I said. its not so much the communication into itself thats fascinating but Philips offering to get the dirt on Ed Lopez even before his report came out to the public. Now that is scary.

Bruce Patrick Brychek wrote:Dear Mr. Paul Pennyworth:Paul - 06.21.2007 I originally Posted my offer to Ricky Clow, you, and others.I never heard again from Ricky Clow, you, or others on this subject.12.18.2009 you seem to indicate that you are interested.I long ago gave away all of the extra copies that I ordered. However,...I am an old fashioned person who always tries to keep his word.After the Holidays I will keep my word.Send me you personal mailing information on The JFK Forum Private Mail System.I will follow through, order you a copy, and mail it to you.Respectfully,Bruce Patrick Brychek.Hello Bruce,My mistake ..I didn't notice the date on the posting....no big deal really if I get it or not...actually if the book is long in the tooth as I suffer from ADD a little, I probably wouldn't miss not getting it...If Prouty thinks Files is not telling the truth, thats his problem. I know that Files is telling the truth about his involvement although he does come up with white ones every once in a while... I think you know what I'm talking about.....