JFK RFK MLK Assassination Forum

From Gil Jesus site:http://www.giljesus.com/jfk/alibi.htm

Oswald could not have told the FBI that Jarman and a short Negro employee were together on the first floor unless he had seen this himself . And for Oswald to have observed this, he would have had to have been on the first floor between 12:10 and 12:15. The fact that he was able to relate this incident is evidence that he was on the first floor until at least 12:15.Gil Jesus shows despite other witnesses lying, changing their stories, twisting into pretzels to avoid placing Oswald far from the "sniper's nest," the evidence is there to clear history's most wrongly accused man.Elsewhere Gil Jesus gives the lie to Oswald ever possessing the alleged assassination weapon:http://www.jfklancerforum.com/dc/dcboar ... 5804Gerald D. McKnight in Breach of Trust: How the Warren Commission Failed the Nation and Why shows Oswald had no gunshot residue (GSR) on his cheek per the Dallas police paraffin test and its confirmation by the Oak Ridge Laboratory of the Atomic Energy Commission.So Oswald wasn't in the sniper's nest, never owned the alleged assassination weapon, and didn't fire a rifle that day.Some people seem to think stealing the country is funny.

THE CURIOUS TESTIMONY OF MR. GIVENS by: Sylvia MeagherOne witness who helped to incriminate Lee Harvey Oswald in the assassinationof President JohnF. Kennedy was a Book Depository porter named Charles Givens. The WarrenCommission gaveprominence to his testimony that he had forgotten his cigarettes on thesixth floor and thatwhen he went to retrieve them just before noon he had encountered Oswaldnear the southeastcorner window.In a book published in 1967 (Accessories After the Fact, Bobbs-Merrill Co.,Inc.), I discussedthe discrepancies between the Givens story as set forth in the Warren Reportand thecorresponding testimony and exhibits, and the grounds for concluding thatthe story suggestedperjury and collusion. It was logically inconsistent with genuine encounterat about 11:45between Oswald and a group of employees who were racing two elevators fromthe sixth to theground floor, when Oswald had called to them to send one elevator back sothat he could go downtoo. Ten minutes later, if one accepted Given's testimony, Oswald declinedto go down for thelunch break. Moreover, while Givens supposedly exchanged a few words withOswald on the sixthfloor, other witnesses observed him on the first floor. Most of all,Givens' testimony wassuspect because in his affidavit to the Dallas police later that afternoonhe said nothing aboutforgetting his cigarettes, returning to the sixth floor, or meeting Oswaldthere - an omissionthat was incomprehensible, if the encounter was authentic.That is how the situation appeared back in 1967. Some months ago, Iobtained from the NationalArchives a collection of unpublished Warren Commission documents ("CD's")concerning CharlesGivens. Reading them was a shock not soon forgotten. I had half-expectedthat the CD's wouldreconcile and dispose of the contradictions that earlier had forced me toquestion thelegitimacy of the Givens testimony and the role of the two or more WarrenCommission lawyers inextracting that testimony.Here is a chronological reconstruction of the Givens affair from whichanyone easily can judgefor himself whether or not there are sufficient grounds for an accusation ofperjury, collusion,and falsification of evidence with the clear purpose of incriminating Oswaldas the assassin ofPresident Kennedy. (The citations in each case refer to both publishedtranscripts and exhibitsand to unpublished commission documents or internal reports and papers.) November 22, 1963At 1:46 p.m. Inspector Sawyer of the Dallas police issued an alert on thepolice radio forCharles Givens, a porter at the Book Depository, because he had "a policerecord and he left"(CE 705, page 30). It was know at that hour that Oswald, too, had left thescene but no alertfor him was issued - Captain Will Fritz and two detectives intended toproceed to Irvingpersonally, in search of Oswald.Within an hour or two, Givens was escorted to the police headquarters, wherehe was questionedand where he executed an affidavit stating that he had left the sixth floorat about 11:30 a.m.,had gone to the washroom, at noon had taken his lunch period, had gone to aparking lot to visitwith a friend employed there (CE 2003, page 27). Givens' affidavit saidnothing about a returnto the sixth floor for cigarettes or an encounter there with Oswald.Later that day Givens was interviewed by FBI agents Griffen and Odum. Hegave the same story asin the affidavit but added one additional piece if information - THAT AT11:50 a.m. HE HAD SEENOSWALD READING A PAPER IN THE "DOMINO ROOM" ON THE FIRST FLOOR (CD 5, PAGE329). November 23, 1963Bonnie Ray Williams, another Book Depository employee, in an interview byFBI agents Griffen andOdum described a race between two elevators on November 22nd at about 11:30a.m. in which he,Givens, and others participated. On the way down, they had seen Oswald onthe fifth floor.Williams had returned to the sixth floor at about noon and had seen no onethere (SD 5, page330). December 2, 1963Givens, interviewed by the Secret Service, said that he had seen Oswald witha clipboard on thesixth floor at about 11:45 a.m., shortly after which he and somefellow-workers had boarded thetwo elevators. While racing to the first floor, Oswald had called to themto sent one elevatorback up (Ball/Berlin Report No.1, dated Feb. 5, 1964). Again, Givens saidnothing about areturn to the sixth floor for his cigarettes at any time after the elevatorrace. December 9, 1963The FBI Summary Report (withheld from the public until mid-1966, whencertain excerpts werepublished in the book Inquest, raising a furor of doubt about the WarrenReport) to PresidentJohnson stated that Oswald had been observed on the fifth floor between11:30 a.m. and noon andthat during that period of time he had asked Givens, who was in an elevator,to close the gateswhen he got off so that the elevator could be summoned (CD 1, page 6). TheFBI Summary ReportOMITS Givens' statement to the two FBI agents on the day of theassassination that he had seenOswald reading a paper in the domino room at 11:50. February 13, 1964Lt. Jack Revill of the Dallas police was interviewed by FBI agent RobertGemberling about pressrumors of a Negro being held in protective custody. Revill "stated thatGivens had beenpreviously handled by the Special Services Bureau on a marijuana charge andhe believes thatGIVENS WOULD CHANGE HIS STORY FOR MONEY." Gemberling's report repeats thestory of the elevatorrace during which Oswald yelled to Givens to close the gates when he got off(CD 735, pages296-297). Almost three months after the "fact," there is still no hint fromGivens, Revill, orthe FBI of cigarettes forgotten by Givens or his return to the sixth floorand encounter therewith Oswald. But in another context, Revill volunteers the opinion thatGivens would givefalse information "for money." February 25, 1964Warren Commission lawyers Joseph Ball and David Belin complete a first jointreport, summarizingthe evidence known by that date, and note discrepancies as to the time ofGivens' departure (andelevator race) from the sixth floor - 11:35 as against 11:40 or 11:45 a.m.Ball and Belin alsonote that Givens saw Oswald at 11:50 a.m. in the domino room and that threeother witnesses alsoplace Oswald on the first floor - William Shelley, at about 11:50 a.m.;Eddie Piper, at noon;and Mrs. Carolyn Arnold, who believed she had seen Oswald near the frontdoor of the BookDepository at about 12:15 p.m. (Ball/Belin memorandum of Feb. 25, 1964,pages 101, 105-107,110). March 18, 1964Givens, in an affidavit furnished by him to FBI agents Trettis andRobertson, states that whenPresident Kennedy was shot, he was standing at the corner of Record and ElmStreets. "Ireturned to the Depository Building, and was told by a Dallas policeman thatI could not enterthe building. About an hour later I went to the Dallas Police Departmentand was questioned bythe police for about 45 minutes." (CE 1381, page 36.) Wearisome though itis, it must again bepointed out that there was no mention during the 45-minute interrogation ofthe cigarettes leftand retrieved or of seeing Oswald on the sixth floor, nor were these allegedcircumstanceshinted at in the March, 1964, affidavit to the FBI, four months after theassassination. April 8, 1964Charles Givens gives sworn testimony to the Warren Commission in adeposition taken by lawyerDavid Belin, with no one else present except the court reporter. Now, forthe FIRST TIME,Givens tells the story (later embodied in the Warren Report) about thecigarettes forgotten onthe sixth floor and the encounter with Oswald (6H 345-356, WR 143). Belinshould have beenfully aware that Givens had told a completely different story to the FBI andthe police on theday of the assassination, and subsequently to the Secret Service and theFBI, since Belin hadco-authored the report which discussed Givens' accounts of his movements inconsiderable detail. But Belin did not challenge Givens' NEW story nor place on record that onseveral earlieroccasions Givens had sworn to a completely different account of hismovements and actions on theday of the assassination. Indeed. in one oblique question, he asked, "Didyou ever tell anyonethat you saw Lee Oswald reading a newspaper in the domino room around11:50...that morning?" (6H354). Givens replied, "No, sir," which meant either that he was givingBelin a false responseor that the two FBI agents who had interviewed him on Nov. 22 had inventedGivens' reportedstatement that he had seen Oswald in the domino room at 11:50 a.m. Yetneither Givens nor theFBI agents were challenged or even queried in an attempt to determine whichstory was true andwhich was false.Did Belin thus passively and by omission became a party to collusion,perjury, and the suborningof false testimony? April, 8, 1964Lawyer Belin took the testimony of Inspector Herbert Sawyer on the same dayas he questionedGivens. Sawyer stated that he had sent out an alarm for Givens an hourafter the shooting onDealey Plaza because "he was supposed to have some information about the manthat did theshooting" (6H 315-325). Belin apparently accepted the statement, despitethe fact that Givenswhen he was picked up did not produce information "about the man who did theshooting" anddespite the language of the alert broadcast on the police radio, which showsclearly that Givenswas wanted because he had a police record and was missing from the BookDepository.Why did Sawyer (and later, Revill, as discussed below) attempt retroactivelyto authenticate astory which Givens articulated for the first time in April? Was thistestimony part and parcelof a deliberate, planned collusion among police officials, commissionlawyers, and a witness whowas a man with a police record and who was appraised as a man who wouldchange his story formoney? May 13, 1964Lt. Revill testified before the Warren Commission, J. Lee Rankin conductingthe examination inthe presence of Warren, Gerald Ford, Allen Dulles, Norman Redlich, ArlenSpecter, and CharlesMyrray, ABA observer. Revill stated that about 2:30 or 3 p.m. on the day ofthe assassinationhe knew only that someone named Lee had been arrested and that "this wastold to him by acolored employee of the Depository." Revill continued, "I asked him if hehad been on the sixthfloor...he said, yes, that he had observed Mr. Lee, over by this window...SoI turned thisGivens individual over to one of our Negro detectives and told him to takehim to Captain Fritzfor interrogation" (5H 35-35).This testimony is patently false, for the obvious reason that Givens onarrival at the policedepart did not state that he had seen Oswald "over by this window" and neversaid so untilApril, 1964. Chief Curry, when he was questioned on June 2, 1964, by theFBI agent VincentDrain, gave a different version that Revill of what he had transpired:"Givens told Revill thathe had been in the....Depository....with Oswald on the morning of Nov. 22,1963, but was on thestreet during the....motorcade...Chief Curry related that everyone who mighthave knowledge ofOswald, known as Lee to Givens, was being questioned" (CD 1245, page 181).THIS seems to be theauthentic story - that Givens was questioned not because he had any specialinformation butbecause he was employed at the Book Depository. June 2, 1964Police Chief Curry was interviewed by FBI agent Drain, as reported in thepreceding paragraph. June 3, 1964The FBI promptly re-interviewed Givens, who told FBI agents Switzer andPetraski that he NOWRECALLED that he had returned to the sixth floor about 11:45 a.m. to get hiscigarettes, etc.(CD 1245, page 182). The FBI did not even raise an eyebrow at Givens'sudden recovery fromsustained amnesia. September 20, 1964The Warren Report was released, with its "forgotten cigarettes" version ofGivens' activities.It contained no indication, explicit or implicit, of Givens' original story,which had placedOswald in the domino room at 11:50, nor did it mention that another witnesshad also seen Oswaldon the first floor at precisely that time while still other witnesses sawhim still on the firstfloor at noon and at about 12:15 p.m.The report also "cleaned up" some of the confusion about items of evidencewhich had arisenbecause of fragmentary or misleading press reports out of Dallas in thefirst frantic hoursafter the assassination. For example, news stories about the chickenremains and the cigarettepackage had created the impression of a sniper who had concealed himself fora prolonged time onthe sixth floor, awaiting the President's appearance. The report explainedthat the chickenremains were discarded innocently by one of the Book Depository employeeswho had eaten hislunch on the sixth floor. But it said nothing about the cigarette packagementioned in theinitial press stories but then completely forgotten by the news media.Oswald, after all, didnot smoke.But Charles Givens DID smoke. If he really left his package of cigaretteson the sixth floor,it may have been picked up together with the chicken bones since the burdenof the unpublisheddocuments is that he never returned there to retrieve anything. Certainlyit is curious thatthe elusive cigarette pack is not mentioned anywhere in the 26 volumes oftestimony and exhibitsnot in the hundreds of pages of unpublished documents which deal in greatdetail with the crimesearch and the laboratory tests of material and objects found on the sixthfloor. April 1971Relying solely on the official documents and papers of the WarrenCommission, I have assembled achronological account of the conflicting statements and testimony in thematter of CharlesGivens and suggest why they raise profound misgivings about the commission'sfindings. I amconfident that no spokesman for the Warren Commission will come forward withclarifications thateffectively reconcile the contradictions in the evidence or that can justifythe embodiment inthe Warren Report of a version of the Givens' story that is incompatiblewith all his earlierstatements, without acknowledgment that there had been previous, differentversions by the samewitness.End quote

Excellent job Ken and Phil. Lee Harvey Oswald was a hero, not a traitor. It was a bunch of traitors that set him up and actually killed JFK.

New from Gil's site:http://www.giljesus.com/jfk/marina.htm

Ken, Phil, and Bob, do either of you have a copy of the Dallas newspaper printed a day or two before JFK'S visit showing the parade route and when JFK was to be in Dealey Plaza. I read an article about 6 months ago that said the Dallas paper which showed the parade route of the President, also stated he would be passing Dealey plaza at 12:15 on his way to the Trade Mart at 12:30. So if that is true, and the paper stated that, then the assasin lone nut would have been in his snipper's nest way before 12:15. Another fact showing that Oswald wasn't the man, because several witnesses had him in the lunch room at 12:15, 12:20, and etc. I wish i could find that article.Please find,JDB

JDB this dos not quite answer you question but I thoughr it would be a good place for it'This is done by Dave Perry who does very good research but ruins it by adding his 2 cents opinion and ruining it trying to make it mean what he wants it to.This screw up by the Dallas Morning News caused lots of trouble with researchers who were not familiar with the street thru Dealey.Wim correctly maintained that you "could" get onto Stemmons from Main St.however the intended flow of traffic was Elm St.IN order to get to Stemmons from Main would have taken the motorcade across curb barriers and a sharp lane change with "could have been done"I think it would be easier to do it today than it would have been in the 60's

This picture if you study it shows the Plaza and underpass, notice that each street Elm, Main, and Commerce are all double lane.Notice the elm street lanes as they leave the underpass, The extreme right hand lane is the access to Stemmons and the left hand lane of Elm continues on to Commerce. There is a large curb seperater between Elm and Main and It would take almost a 90 degree turn to jump the curb and get over to the lane heading onto Stemmons.Elm was one way west, Main was two way, and Commerce was one way east.Questions?

Dave Perry does very good research ny distorting everything. He's a coward like his buddy Gary Mack is. It has well been over a year since Bob wrote his article about Perry. Have we heard a response from ole Dave? No. Not a peep.

Deeper Into Dave PerryBy Bob Foxhttp://www.ctka.net/2010/perry.html(Or in the alternative, Dunkel's Dave Takes a Dive--Bob hears crickets)