JFK RFK MLK Assassination Forum

Just in case this title is also too long, here it is again:THE MOST IMPORTANT ERROR THE FBI TOLD THE WARREN COMMISSION ABOUT THE RIFLEAs we have discussed, SA Robert A. Frazier was the FBI's leading firearms expert, performed all of the FBI's tests on the alleged assassination weapon and presented his findings in testimony to the Warren Commission in 1964. It has been my experience that it is remarkably easy to find glaring mistakes in Mr. Frazier's testimony, to the point I have begun to suspect he almost wanted someone to see through the FBI's charade. What I am going to show you I have already presented in another thread. It is buried at the back of that thread, however, and the importance of it may not be readily apparent to a reader whose head is already swimming with other data. Anyways, here is the testimony: From Wikipedia: "FBI tests[edit] The FBI tests of the Carcano's accuracy showed: 1) FBI firearms expert Robert A. Frazier testified that "It is a very accurate weapon. The targets we fired show that."[61] From 15 yards (14 m), all three bullets in a test firing landed approximately 2½ inches high, and 1-inch (25 mm) to the right, in the area about the size of a dime.[62] At 100 yards (91 m), the test shots landed 2½ to 5 inches (130 mm) high, within a 3 to 5-inch (130 mm) circle. Frazier testified that the scope's high variation would actually work in the shooter's favor: with a target moving away from the shooter, no lead correction would have been necessary to follow the target. "At that range, at that distance, 175 feet (53 m) to 265 feet (81 m),[63] with this rifle and that telescopic sight, I would not have allowed any lead — I would not have made any correction for lead merely to hit a target of that size." Can anyone spot the outrageous error in the above testimony?

Here is the longer piece of Mr. Frazier's testimony from which the paraphrased Wikipedia excerpts were taken: "Mr. EISENBERG - This test was performed at 15 yards, did you say, Mr. Frazier? Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir. And this series of shots we fired to determine actually the speed at which the rifle could be fired, not being overly familiar with this particular firearm, and also to determine the accuracy of the weapon under those conditions. Mr. EISENBERG - And could you give us the names of the three agents who participated? Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir. Charles Killion, Cortlandt Cunningham, and myself. Mr. EISENBERG - And the date? Mr. FRAZIER - November 27, 1963. Mr. EISENBERG - How many shots did each agent fire? Mr. FRAZIER - Killion fired three, Cunningham fired three, and I fired three. Mr. EISENBERG - And do you have the times within which each agent fired the three shots? Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir. Killion fired his three shots in nine seconds, and they are shown--the three shots are interlocking, shown on Commission Exhibit No. 549. Cunningham fired three shots--I know the approximate number of seconds was seven. Cunningham's time was approximately seven seconds. Mr. EISENBERG - Can you at a later date confirm the exact time? Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir. Mr. EISENBERG - And you will do that by letter to the Commission, or if you happen to come back by oral testimony? Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir. Mr. EISENBERG - And your time, Mr. Frazier? Mr. FRAZIER - For this series, was six seconds, for my three shots, which also were on the target at which Mr. Cunningham fired, which is Exhibit 548. Mr. EISENBERG - Could you characterize the dispersion of the shots on the two targets which you have been showing us, 548 and 549? Mr. FRAZIER - The bullets landed approximately--in Killion's target, No. 549, approximately 2 1/2 inches high, and 1 inch to the right, in the area about the size of a dime, interlocking in the paper, all three shots. On Commission Exhibit 548, Cunningham fired three shots. These shots were interlocking, or within an eighth of an inch of each other, and were located approximately 4 inches high and 1 inch to the right of the aiming point. The three shots which I fired were landed in a three-quarter inch circle, two of them interlocking with Cunningham's shots, 4 inches high, and approximately 1 inch to the right of the aiming point. Mr. EISENBERG - Can you describe the second series of tests? Mr. FRAZIER - The second test which was performed was two series of three shots at 25 yards, instead of 15 yards. I fired both of these tests, firing them at a cardboard target, in an effort to determine how fast the weapon could be fired primarily, with secondary purpose accuracy. We did not attempt- I did not attempt to maintain in that test an accurate rate of fire. This is the actual target which I fired. Mr. EISENBERG - And that target has all six holes in it? Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir--two series of three holes, the first three holes being marked with the No. 1, and the second series being marked No. 2. Mr. EISENBERG - Mr. Chairman, I would like this introduced as 550. Mr. McCLOY - That will be admitted. (The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 550, and received in evidence.) Mr. EISENBERG - Could you describe for the record the dispersion on the two series? Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir. The first series of three shots were approximately--from 4 to 5 inches high and from 1 to 2 inches to the right of the aiming point, and landed within a 2-inch circle. These three shots were fired in 4.8 seconds. The second series of shots landed--one was about 1 inch high, and the other two about 4 or 5 inches high, and the maximum spread was 5 inches. That series was fired in 4.6 seconds. Mr. EISENBERG - And do you have the date? Mr. FRAZIER - That also was on the 27th of November. Mr. EISENBERG - Same date as the first tests? Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir. Mr. EISENBERG - And you performed one more test, I believe? Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir. We fired additional targets at 100 yards on the range at Quantico, Va., firing groups of three shots. And 1 have the four targets we fired here. Mr. EISENBERG - Mr. Chairman, I would like these admitted as 551, 552, 553, and 554. Mr. McCLOY - They may be admitted. (The documents referred to were marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 551 through 554, and received in evidence.) Mr. EISENBERG - Who fired these shots, Mr. Frazier? Mr. FRAZIER - I fired them. Mr. EISENBERG - Can you characterize the dispersion on each of the four targets? Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir. On Commission Exhibit 551 the three shots landed approximately 5 inches high and within a 3 1/2-inch circle, almost on a line horizontally across the target. This target and the other targets were fired on March 16, 1964 at Quantico, Va. These three shots were fired in 5.9 seconds. The second target fired is Commission Exhibit 552, consisting of three shots fired in 6.2 seconds, which landed in approximately a 4 1/2 to 5-inch circle located 4 inches high and 3 or 4 inches to the right of the aiming point. Commission Exhibit No. 553 is the third target fired, consisting of three shots which landed in a 3-inch circle located about 2 1/2 inches high and 2 inches to the right of the aiming point. These three shots were fired in 5.6 seconds. And Commission Exhibit No. 554, consisting of three shots fired in 6.5 seconds, which landed approximately 5 inches high and 5 inches to the right of the aiming point, all within a 3 1/2-inch circle."

Seriously, not one of you can spot anything wrong with Frazier's testimony? Are there no shooters in this crowd?

I have fired rifles, but never a Carcano. I probably never would either, especially if my shots go high and right by a number of inches all the time.

That is exactly the point. The rifle could not have been shooting high at all three ranges.

And what, you are all clamoring to know, was so outrageous about Frazier's testimony to the Warren Commission?The outrageous thing in Mr. Frazier's testimony is that he tells us he and two colleagues each fired three shots, with the assassination rifle, at different targets at 15 yards, and each of these shots hit the 15 yard targets 2.5 - 4 inches high of the point of aim. He then further outrages any thinking person with even the slightest experience with shooting rifles by telling the WC that he and his two colleagues then each fired three shots, with the same rifle, at targets set up at 100 yards, and all bullets struck their 100 yard targets 2.5 - 5 inches high of the point of aim. What Mr. Frazier has testified to here is physically impossible, and I will show you exactly why that is true. If there is any truth to Frazier's testimony about the rifle shooting 2.5 - 4 inches high at 15 yards, C2766 is disqualified as being the assassination weapon; at least as far as shooting with the scope is concerned. I will explain all of this, as well.

I had earlier attempted to employ algebra in determining how much above the point of aim at 100 yards the bullets would be impacting. Instead, I chose a more professional method and decided to employ a handy ballistics calculator found at this site http://www.handloads.com/calc/ . I entered all the relevant data concerning the Carcano and its ammunition. Muzzle velocity, as testified by Frazier, 2165 fps, bullet weight = 162 grains, ballistic coefficient (from another calculator) = .322 and sight height (centreline of scope distance above centreline of bore) as determined by Drew = 1.5". In order to have a bullet impact a target at 15 yards and have that impact 2.5 inches high of the "point of aim" or line of sight (as claimed by Frazier) it was necessary, on this calculator, to zero the rifle at 5.5 yards. In other words, if the rifle was hitting 2.5 inches high at 15 yards, it would be dead on at 5.5 yards; the point at where the line of sight and the bullet path cross. This diagram shows what I mean. Notice that the bullet path crosses the line of sight just out from the muzzle, and again at the target. The results I found with a target zero of 5.5 yards are shown below. Note that, at 0 yards, the figure in all calculations is -1.5", due to the fact that our barrel centreline is 1.5 inches below the scope centreline. The bullet will always, in this rifle, begin its journey 1.5 inches below the line of sight.Due to problems c/p'ing material from the calculator site, I am only displaying three values. They are, left to right, Range, Bullet Velocity and Impact. Anyone wishing to know other values can enter all the data into the calculator.0 2165 -1.5 0 5 2149 -0.14 10 2137 1.21 15 2125 2.54 20 2113 3.85 25 2101 5.14 30 2089 6.42 35 2077 7.67 40 2065 8.9 45 2054 10.11 50 2042 11.3 55 2030 12.47 60 2019 13.62 65 2007 14.74 70 1996 15.84 75 1984 16.93 80 1973 17.99 85 1961 19.02 90 1950 20.05 95 1939 21.04 100 1927 22.01 Looking at the range and impact columns, we can see the impact figure of -.14" at 5 yards. This is correct, as the rifle scope is zeroed at 5.5 yards, and the bullet is about to cross the line of sight at 5.5 yards. Further down, we can see, at 15 yards, the bullet is now 2.54" above the line of sight; precisely where Frazier claimed one of the FBI shooters was hitting a 15 yard target. Now it gets interesting. If we scroll down to 100 yards, we find the rifle zeroed at 5.5 yards, and impacting 2.54" high at 15 yards, is impacting a 100 yard target 22 inches above the point of aim. However, if we look again at Frazier's testimony, we find that Frazier's three shots at a 15 yard target impacted 4 inches high of the point of aim. Let's see how that changes things on the trajectory. In order to have a bullet impacting the target 4.08" high at 15 yards, it was necessary to zero the scope at 4 yards. The results are shown below:0 2165 -1.5 5 2148 0.37 10 2136 2.23 15 2123 4.08 20 2111 5.9 25 2099 7.7 30 2087 9.48 35 2074 11.24 40 2062 12.99 45 2050 14.71 50 2038 16.41 55 2026 18.09 60 2014 19.74 65 2002 21.39 70 1990 23 75 1979 24.59 80 1967 26.16 85 1955 27.71 90 1943 29.23 95 1932 30.74 100 1920 32.22 Our figures for the 4 yard zero and 4" high impact at 15 yards now give us a figure, at 100 yards, of 32.22", meaning this rifle would shoot 32.22" high of the point of aim at 100 yards. I'm afraid Mr. Frazier has some explaining to do, as his testimony states that the rifle only shot 2.5 - 5 inches high of the point of aim at 100 yards and not the 22 - 32.22 inches high the ballistics calculator shows.

Robert, in the big picture, this makes a lot of sense. We know LHO was not only a CIA operative, but also a FBI informant. It was a "Lee" that warned of the Chicago assassination plot and I'll bet it was Oswald who also warned FBI offices about another attempt to assassinate JFK in Dallas the week of the assassination.Plus, we also know that Gerald Ford was considered to be the FBI's eyes and ears on the Warren Commission. He obviously played a vital part in the charade of LHO being the Lone Nut with what he did when he moved JFK's back wound up a number of inches to make the ridiculous single bullet theory even remotely plausible.Plus, we also know that LBJ and J.Edgar Hoover were not only neighbors, but close friends. Both expected that JFK would have nothing to do with either of them after the 1964 election. That's why both of them allowed the assassination to take place, with assurances that they would do whatever it took to keep the real truth hidden.LBJ was going to be replaced as VP, plus he was most likely would be facing criminal charges from RFK and company too.Hoover was going to be forced out as FBI director, plus he also knew that he had to keep the lid on the LHO was a FBI informant situation.Just like in the CIA and Secret Service, there were a number of people in the FBI organization that put patriotism and the United States above anything else. But unfortunately, just like in both the CIA and SS, there were also some people in the FBI that were easily bought off and corrupted. Based on his testimony, Robert Frazier sounds like he could be one of those people.In addition, Ford was on the Commission. We know what he did to falsify JFK's back wound and place it higher near the neck. No matter what Frazier or anyone from the FBI said, Ford was there to take the information and sanitize to the point of still placing the blame on LHO.Bottom line, we know that the Warren Commission was certainly corrupted with the inclusion of both Ford and Allen Dulles as members.