Motorcade route change?

[dankbaar]

There is a lot of discussion going on wether the motorcade was changed from Main street to Houston and Elm. The anti-conpiricists use the fact that James Files is adament on the route change, as a point against his credibility, as they maintain the route was never changed. Maybe we could examine if the route was changed or not, and if so when? 1994 interview: Roselli...I'm going to say somewhere shortly around 7:00 that morning, maybe a few minutes past seven...and I picked up Johnny Roselli and we drove from the Dallas Cabana to Ft. Worth, Texas to a pancake house(12) they had there just off the major highway. We went there to meet someone...I did not know who we was meeting...But he had already told me...Johnny Roselli said we was going to meet a man by the name of Jack Ruby...that he had some things that we had to pick up. When we got there, Johnny Roselli told me he said...I'm going to go in and sit in a booth...he says you wait and come in later...he said sit somewhere else where you can keep an eye on me...in case something goes wrong, I want you to cover my backside. So I positioned myself..after Johnny Roselli went in...I sit at the counter...ordered a cup of coffee and sit there and waited. This real heavy set gentlemen came in and he went over and he knew Johnny Roselli I assume cause they shook hands, they talked for a minute and they sit down in the booth together. They passed over, I'm gonna say probably a 5 x 9 envelope...manilla envelope that had some material in it, at that point. After a couple of minutes, he got up, they shook hands, he left. I went out into the parking lot, made sure the air was clear, started the car up, pulled up by the door, Johnny Roselli come out and got in the car. I never met Jack Ruby, never said hello or anything. Johnny Roselli got in the car with me and we started back to Dallas. He opened the envelope up and there was identification in there for Secret Service people and we had a map in there of the exact motorcade route that would take it through Dealey Plaza. Johnny Roselli said well they only made one change.(13) That was when he informed me they was coming off of Main Street on to Elm or on to Houston there...they made the zig-zag, the little turn that they should have never made. But when they made that, it was the only change in it. I drove him back to the Dallas Cabana, he went upstairs and I waited for Mr. Nicoletti to come down. Mr. Nicoletti came down and got in the car with me and we drove to Dealey Plaza. 2003 interview:J – Okay. So tell us about the trip over to Fort worth.JF – The trip over to Fort Worth. Well, I didn’t know we were going to Fort Worth. He told me he had directions and I don’t know if he had ever been there before or not, but we went to Fort Worth, I remember the exit was like University Avenue or University Boulevard, it was named University, that’s all I know. I know it was on the south side and then sitting on the west side of that street. Just a couple of blocks off there, the pancake house. Fairly new one. J – It’s still there!JF – Well, I didn’t know it’s still there, but they make good pancakes, I know that. That’s where I had my first Belgian waffle. (Fort Worth is quite some distance from downtown Dallas and James Files has no clue why the meeting with Jack Ruby had to take place there, but it is quite understandable that Johnny Roselli did not want to be seen with Jack Ruby in Dallas where Ruby was a well known figure. )W – Why did you go all the way to Fort Worth?JF – Excuse me, I 've got to clarify one thing: I didn’t have a Belgian waffle that morning. I had the Belgian waffle there a few years later. But that morning when I got there, Johnny Roselli went there to meet somebody by the name of Jack Ruby. I had never known Jack Ruby, nothing about him. When I got there and pulled in the parking lot, Johnny Roselli told me: Let me go in first, see where I’m going to sit, come in and position yourself. And he asked me: Are you carrying? And I said: Yeah, I’m carrying. He said: Good! When I sit down, where I am sitting at, I don’t know what may transpire. He said: Something could go wrong. Be very alert! Keep my backside covered! I won’t be in your line of fire. And I said: Okay, I pick an open field of fire. Where ever I figure I can handle it. I said: Go sit down and I’ll come in position myself. Johnny Roselli went in and they had like, you can call it a booth, a table, there wasn’t anything before it or nothing, but he sat down in that. And I went (inaudible) right behind him. I positioned myself at the counter, ordered a cup of coffee, I was served and sat there. And then I sit there and I watch and saw a short stocky built man come in, walked over, Johnny got up, they shook hands, they sit down, they talked for a couple of minutes. I see him take like a half-size, like a legal envelope, but only half that size, out of his jacket and he laid it and pushed it across the table to Johnny Roselli. He got up, they shook hands, this man left, Johnny waited maybe two minutes. Johnny looked at me, I got up, I walked out the restaurant, made sure the area was clear, nobody outside in the parking lot, I went over and got in the car, started up and pulled up by the door, Johnny Roselli walked out, got in the car and we drove away.J – Did you ask him or did you find out in some way what was in the envelope?JF- On the way back to Dallas, Johnny and me was driving down the road, he didn’t open the envelope right away. We got almost up to, I think it’s Arlington, it’s about halfway there. I’m saying halfway, could be less one way or the other, it ‘s been a long time for me. But we were right about Arlington and Johnny opened the envelope, takes the stuff out and is looking at it. While he is looking at it, he noticed I am watching over while I am driving, and he ‘s got them little black wallets, like half-size, like identification wallets. And he opened them up and there is identification plates in them and there’s badges on them. At that point I didn’t know what the identification on it was. Because he is sitting there and looking at it, and I’m not going to lean over and I’m not going to say: Give me one of those!, or anything like that. I wait, when he wants me to know, he will tell me. And then he opened up a piece of paper and he unfolded it. And there has been a lot of discrepancy over this part now. But Johnny Roselli said: They only made one change in the route. W – That was the motorcade?JF – It was a map of Dealey Plaza, the motorcade route. When he looked at it, for Dealey Plaza, he said they have only made one alter, one change in it. He said: That’s all. And I said: What’s that? And he said: They are going to go down Elm Street. They’re going to stop and make a detour, coming around this little street here. And he held it up and I kinda glanced over but I didn’t get a chance to look at it real good at that point. But I had already reconned the area so I knew what he was talking about. And I know that everybody says: They had the motorcade in the newspaper, weeks and months ahead of time. Sure they did. But they didn’t have that one change. And if anybody wants to show somebody a newspaper clip, anybody check real close, because the original route they were not coming down Elm Street there. On that little detour, where they had the slowdown.(Wim: The little detour that James Files talks about is a zig-zag turn over Houston Street and then onto Elm Street. Such a sharp turn where the presidential limousine has to slow down considerably, is in violation with Secret Service regulations. This detour was in fact published in newspapers on Tuesday 19 November, but it is possible that the original plan for the motorcade route was to go straight over Main Street. The change over Elm Street appears to have been made prior to that tuesday.)J – Had you heard prior to that, when they got to Dealey Plaza, that they would just continue straight on Main Street? Was that the idea?JF – The original plan was that we would be shooting at a fast moving target. And Nicoletti had no military experience and I already had advised him that he would have to shoot high and the target would be running away from him. That he would have to shoot above the head. And we were going for a headshot, I told him “it’s going to be hard for you to hit him from there”. We ‘re getting a little bit ahead though. Before we got into this part ..J – Yeah, let’s go back ..JF – Because Chuck hadn’t got to Dallas that week. He only came in, I hadn’t seen him that morning. I had not seen Chuck in person until I went with Johnny Roselli to Fort Worth and come back. Johnny Roselli got out of the car and went upstairs, Charles Nicoletti came down. Mr. Nicoletti got into the car with me and we drove to Dealey Plaza.

[Dealey Joe]

Wim, A great idea, this needs to be put to rest.I have no problem believing Jimmy but there is a way to do this maybe.can we get a map of the original route?We would need that to start with. without it I don't know if we can prove anything?

[Dealey Joe]

http://davesjfk.com/mtrcade.html This website has a good description of what transpired as far as the motorcade routeBy a quick pass of the article the planed parade route was always to take Houston to Elm then to Stemmons.The reason they came down Main was because it offered much better crowd control and more spectators.The newspapers actually were the ones who made the mistake in publishing the route without showing the jog onto Elm.So The Chicago bunch had gotten the wrong info and to them when presented with the actual route it was a change to them.I think to assume the route was changed just to put JFK in harms way is erroneous.This answers a lot of questions in my mind.A lane change from Main to Elm theoretically might be possible but the Motorcade would have had to almost stop just as they emerged from the underpass and made a sharp 90 degree right across two lanes then sharp to the left up the ramp to Stemmons.There is no way they would have planned doing that.James Files would have had no problem with the Main street shot either.Dallas Morning News published this error at least twice.The Dallas Times Herald got it right

[Dealey Joe]

Since no one else willl comment...........To carry on a bit..Davesjfk does a real great job putting the facts about the routes together but I feel he is a little less than happy he could not pin James Files to the wall and prove him a liar.His philosophy about what Files "SHOULD HAVE DONE" is unfounded as he has no clue as to what Files did the days in Dallas before the assassination or how he obtained the information evident ally from the Dallas Morning News who had the route posted since the 19th.One Problem, They had it wrong, all wrong, in Picture and print. They ommitted the Houston Street turn over to Elm. This route had been decided for several days and never changed.The reason to come on Main through the downtown was chosen because it offered the best way for the spectator and crowd control.As I say, the Dallas Morning News knew what the route really was but due to miscommunications they just got it wrong, and got it wrong two more times, one map and also on the written directions..It is plain to see that Files trusted the Dallas Morning News to know what the route was to be..Jack Ruby eventually got the correct information and a map from the Dallas Times Herald who had it correct all along.Was there actually a route change? NOAs far as James Files was concerned was there a route Change? YESAs I said before Files could have easily made the same shot to Main St with the Fireball XP-100, It really would not have mattered to him which street.We do not need to show that they changed the route just to get JFK into a sitting duck position.As you can see this is not true nor necessary, he was a sitting duck no matter, Main or Elm.Case Closed!

[kenmurray]

Joe, Dave Perry has no clue period. He is a disinfo guy plain and simple. He's a sack full of shit just like Larry the Fable Guy is.Bob's article along with your research nailed his ass to the wall.That's why you haven't heard no response from him. Not a word.

[Dealey Joe]

Well Ken at this point I have to give him credit for keeping his mouth shut.I think sometimes they forget they are not the only one that can check things out in Texasmight think they are hidden. like King Chicken Shit.I got on that History forum for a few days but there are too many on there who have never studied anything and think they know it all.Not much different than the other Assassinatioon forum. all they want to do is arrgue

[katisha]

Dealey Joe wrote:I got on that History forum for a few days but there are too many on there who have never studied anything and think they know it all.Not much different than the other Assassinatioon forum. all they want to do is arrgueI like that new forum, Joe. Yeah, there's a few old hands there who've just joined up to continue old arguments from elsewhere, but maybe there's some new people who'll find it a gentle introduction to this whole convoluted, complicated topic. I wish I'd found a forum like that when I was starting out. Back to basics for beginners.

[Dealey Joe]

KatishaI think Mr. Harris has the desire for it to be a good site.but it looks too much like the Von Pein crew to me.I also believe in this day and age real names should be used.I guess I am just accustomed to a quiet bunch

[Phil Dragoo]

JoeYour instincts are correct.A poster there had an obscene insult against James Files which was allowed to remain until I alerted moderator Robert Harris.A poster on that thread you reference cites Edward Epstein and McAdams in his attempt to refute James Files.Epstein in Legend attempts to make Oswald a mysterious KGB asset, and Epstein tag-teamed in the final kill of DeMohrenschildt, who went down between Epstein and Fonzi.As for McAdams:http://www.jfkmurdersolved.com/mcadams.htmThere is a lot of active misinformation going on there.

[Bob]

Epstein and McAdams? Okay...now we know Moe and Curly. Dave Perry would be a perfect Larry, as he has gone after Jimmy on several occasions with his usual disinformation propaganda.